Re: [xmca] Boris assists Mike assists Eric

Hi adam
You stimulated me to check out wikipedia on wenger identity. Worth checking
out at
http://edutechwiki.unige.ch/en/Professional_identity#Lave.2FWenger

I am guessing we need to distinguish lave/wenger from wenger at this point.
So far as I know,
Jean's focus on a social ontology would make her loath to make statements
about the subjective
side of identity (yes, it is something done to us, but yes it is something
we do in transacting the world).
But Etienne does not seem to shy away from psychologizing.

Am I mis=remembering here?
mike

On Nov 24, 2007 1:52 PM, Adam Mendelson <amendelson@berkeley.edu> wrote:

> I think identity is fairly central to Lave & Wenger's legitimate
> peripheral
> participation. I interpret their's as a model in which learning is a
> process
> of becoming a type of person (i.e. a full member in a particular
> community).
> Their work shares many of the same premises as language socialization
> which
> posits not only that we learn language through being socialized into
> particular speech communities, but also that we are socialized to the
> ideologies of those communities through language.
>
> Wenger's later "communities of practice" presents a much fuller discussion
> of identity than was initially developed by L&W. For one, he accounts for
> membership in multiple communities. Similarly, Eva Lam explores the impact
> on identity of being simultaneously socialized into multiple speech
> communities.
>
> Adam
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 12:21 PM
> To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [xmca] Boris assists Mike assists Eric
>
>
>
> Wow, Boris & Mike:
>
> That is truely enlightening. I appreciate the formation of the ideal that
> has evolved from this discourse. I was floundering at first Mike,
> regarding
> your comment on superego, but having read and reread the post from Boris I
> now concur that personality research is not for the collective but rather
> for the understanding of cultural influences upon development.
> Mike, in your opinion does Lave and Wagner's research on legitimate
> peripheral participation assist in the research pertaining to identity?
>
> Thank you Andy for beginning this fabulous thread
>
> grateful for the discourse,
> not dead yet,
> eric
>
>
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> cc: Boris Meshcheryakov <borlogic@orexovo.net>
> bcc:
> Subject: Fwd: Fwd: [xmca] Vygotsky on Identity?
> "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> 11/23/2007 08:50 AM PST
> Please respond to mcole <font size=-1></font>
>
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> In red below is my attempt at translation of a note from Boris
> Mescheryakov
> re identity and personality in LSV. Boris, whose work you can read in the
> Companion to Vygotsky and elsewhere was kind enough to look up relevant
> passages from LSV. I probably have not done the translation justice, but
> most all of this exists in English and others more knowledgeable of
> Russian
> can straighten things out.
>
> It appears were are dealing with issues that are not usefully reduced to
> either or....... again.
> mike
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Boris Meshcheryakov < borlogic@orexovo.net>
> Date: Nov 23, 2007 12:01 AM
> Subject: Re: Fwd: [xmca] Vygotsky on Identity?
> To: Mike Cole <mcole@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
>
> úÄÒÁ×ÓÔ×ÕÊ, Mike.
> ðÏ-×ÉÄÉÍÏÍÕ, ÐÒÁ×Ù ÔÅ, ËÔÏ ÓÞÉÔÁÅÔ, ÞÔÏ ÐÒÏÂÌÅÍÁ ÉÄÅÎÔÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ,
> ÉÄÅÎÔÉÆÉËÁÃÉÉ, ÓÁÍÏÏÐÒÅÄÅÌÅÎÉÑ (ÓÁÍÏÄÅÔÅÒÍÉÎÁÃÉÉ) ÎÅ ÂÙÌÉ ÓÁÍÏÓÔÏÑÔÅÌØÎÙÍ
> ÐÒÅÄÍÅÔÏÍ ÒÁÚÍÙÛÌÅÎÉÊ É ÉÓÓÌÅÄÏ×ÁÎÉÊ ÷ÙÇÏÔÓËÏÇÏ. íÏÇÕ ÌÉÛØ ÐÒÅÄÌÏÖÉÔØ
> ÎÅËÏÔÏÒÙÅ ÅÇÏ ×ÙÓËÁÚÙ×ÁÎÉÑ Ï ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÉ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ É ÓÁÍÏÓÏÚÎÁÎÉÉ (ÜÔÕ Ó×ÑÚØ
> ÷ÙÇÏÔÓËÉÊ ÞÅÔËÏ ÏÐÉÓÙ×ÁÌ):
>
> Apparently, those who believe that the problem of identity,
> identification,
> self determination were not independent subjects of thought and
> investigation by LSV are correct. I can only propos a few of his
> statements
> on the development of personality and self consciousness (this connection
> Vygotsky clearly did describe)
>
>
> ?...ÏÔÌÉÞÉÅ ÒÅÂÅÎËÁ ÏÔ ÐÏÄÒÏÓÔËÁ ÍÏÖÅÔ ÂÙÔØ ÌÕÞÛÅ ×ÓÅÇÏ ×ÙÒÁÖÅÎÏ
> ÐÏÌÏÖÅÎÉÅÍ
> çÅÇÅÌÑ, ËÏÔÏÒÙÊ ÒÁÚÌÉÞÁÌ ×ÅÝÉ × ÓÅÂÅ É ×ÅÝÉ ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ. ïÎ ÇÏ×ÏÒÉÌ, ÞÔÏ ×ÓÅ
> ×ÅÝÉ ÓÕÔØ ÓÎÁÞÁÌÁ × ÓÅÂÅ, ÎÏ ÎÁ ÜÔÏÍ ÄÅÌÏ ÎÅ ÏÓÔÁÎÁ×ÌÉ×ÁÅÔÓÑ É × ÐÒÏÃÅÓÓÅ
> ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÑ ×ÅÝØ ÐÒÅ×ÒÁÝÁÅÔÓÑ × ×ÅÝØ ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ. ôÁË, ÇÏ×ÏÒÉÌ ÏÎ, ÞÅÌÏ×ÅË ×
> ÓÅÂÅ
> ÅÓÔØ ÒÅÂÅÎÏË, ÚÁÄÁÞÁ ËÏÔÏÒÏÇÏ ÓÏÓÔÏÉÔ ÎÅ × ÔÏÍ, ÞÔÏÂÙ ÏÓÔÁ×ÁÔØÓÑ × ÜÔÏÍ
> ÁÂÓÔÒÁËÔÎÏÍ É ÎÅÒÁÚ×ÉÔÏÍ "× ÓÅÂÅ", Á × ÔÏÍ, ÞÔÏÂÙ ÓÔÁÔØ ÔÁËÖÅ É ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ
> ÔÅÍ, ÞÅÍ ÏÎ ÐÏËÁ ÅÓÔØ ÌÉÛØ × ÓÅÂÅ, ÉÍÅÎÎÏ ÓÔÁÔØ Ó×ÏÂÏÄÎÙÍ É ÒÁÚÕÍÎÙÍ
> ÓÕÝÅÓÔ×ÏÍ. ÷ÏÔ ÜÔÏ ÐÒÅ×ÒÁÝÅÎÉÅ ÒÅÂÅÎËÁ ÉÚ ÞÅÌÏ×ÅËÁ × ÓÅÂÅ × ÐÏÄÒÏÓÔËÁ ?
> ÞÅÌÏ×ÅËÁ ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ ? É ÓÏÓÔÁ×ÌÑÅÔ ÇÌÁ×ÎÏÅ ÓÏÄÅÒÖÁÎÉÅ ×ÓÅÇÏ ËÒÉÚÉÓÁ
> ÐÅÒÅÈÏÄÎÏÇÏ ×ÏÚÒÁÓÔÁ. üÔÏ ÅÓÔØ ÜÐÏÈÁ ÓÏÚÒÅ×ÁÎÉÑ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ É
> ÍÉÒÏ×ÏÚÚÒÅÎÉÑ...?
> (ðÅÄÏÌÏÇÉÑ ÐÏÄÒÏÓÔËÁ, óÏÂÒ. ÓÏÞ., Ô. 4, Ó. 199).
>
> "the difference between child and adolescent may be best expressed by
> Hegel's position that distinguished things in themselves and things for
> oneself. He said that the all things are initially in themselves, but
> matters do not stop at this point and in the process of development the
> thing turns into a thing for onself. Thus, he said, a person (man) in
> himself is a child, whose task is to leave behind that abstract and
> undeveloped "in himself" and in so doing, in order to become for himself
> in
> a way that he is in the meantime only in himself, that is, to become a
> free
> and intelligent being. This very transformation of the child into an adult
> (man) in himself in the adolescent -- a person (man) for himself--
> constitutes the major content of the entire crisis of this transitional
> age.
> It is an epoch of the maturation of personality and world view (Pedology
> of
> the Adolescent, Comp Works, v4, p. 199)
>
> "ìÉÞÎÏÓÔØ ÓÔÁÎÏ×ÉÔÓÑ ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ ÔÅÍ, ÞÔÏ ÏÎÁ ÅÓÔØ × ÓÅÂÅ, ÞÅÒÅÚ ÔÏ, ÞÔÏ ÏÎÁ
> ÐÒÅÄßÑ×ÌÑÅÔ ÄÌÑ ÄÒÕÇÉÈ. üÔÏ É ÅÓÔØ ÐÒÏÃÅÓÓ ÓÔÁÎÏ×ÌÅÎÉÑ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ" (éÓÔÏÒÉÑ
> ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÑ ÷ðæ, óÏÂÒ. ÓÏÞ., Ô. 3, Ó. 144). (A) Personality becomes for
> itself, when it has previously been in itself, through what it
> manifests
> through others (History of Dev of HPF, Coll. Works, Vol 3, p. 144)
>
> ïÞÅÎØ ×ÁÖÎÏÅ ÄÏÂÁ×ÌÅÎÉÅ ÉÚ "éÓÔÏÒÉÉ ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÑ ÷ðæ": "The following addition
> from same work is very important:
>
> ?äÖ. âÏÌÄÕÉÎ ÓÐÒÁ×ÅÄÌÉ×Ï ÏÔÍÅÔÉÌ, ÞÔÏ ÐÏÎÑÔÉÅ Ï "Ñ" ÒÁÚ×É×ÁÅÔÓÑ Õ ÒÅÂÅÎËÁ
> ÉÚ
> ÐÏÎÑÔÉÑ Ï ÄÒÕÇÉÈ. ðÏÎÑÔÉÅ ?ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔØ? ÅÓÔØ, Ô.Ï., ÓÏÃÉÁÌØÎÏÅ, ÏÔÒÁÖÅÎÎÏÅ
> ÐÏÎÑÔÉÅ, ÓÔÒÏÑÝÅÅÓÑ ÎÁ ÏÓÎÏ×Å ÔÏÇÏ, ÞÔÏ ÒÅÂÅÎÏË ÐÒÉÍÅÎÑÅÔ ÐÏ ÏÔÎÏÛÅÎÉÀ Ë
> ÓÁÍÏÍÕ ÓÅÂÅ ÔÅ ÐÒÉÅÍÙ ÐÒÉÓÐÏÓÏÂÌÅÎÉÑ, ËÏÔÏÒÙÅ ÏÎ ÐÒÉÍÅÎÑÅÔ ÐÏ ÏÔÎÏÛÅÎÉÀ Ë
> ÄÒÕÇÉÍ. ÷ÏÔ ÐÏÞÅÍÕ ÍÏÖÎÏ ÓËÁÚÁÔØ, ÞÔÏ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔØ ÅÓÔØ ÓÏÃÉÁÌØÎÏÅ × ÎÁÓ? (Ô.
> 3, Ó. 324/ ÖÉÒÎ. ÛÒÉÆÔ ÍÏÊ ? â.í.).
>
> James Baldwin correctly noted that the concept of "I" develops in a child
> from the concept of others. The concept, personality, that is, the social,
> reflected, concept, is built on the basis of the fact that the child uses
> in
> relationship to himself those means of adaptation which he uses in
> relationship to others. This is why it is possible to say that personality
> is the social in us. (vol 3, p. 324)
>
>
>
> éÚ "ðÓÉÈÏÌÏÇÉÞÅÓËÏÇÏ ÓÌÏ×ÁÒÑ" ÷ÁÒÛÁ×Ù É ÷ÙÇÏÔÓËÏÇÏ (1931) From Varshava
> and
> Vygotsky (1931) *Psychological Dictionary*:
>
> "éÄÅÎÔÉÆÉËÁÃÉÑ (æÒÅÊÄ) - ÏÔÏÖÄÅÓÔ×ÌÅÎÉÅ, ÕÐÏÄÏÂÌÅÎÉÅ ÓÅÂÑ ÄÒÕÇÏÊ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ,
> ÐÒÉÐÉÓÙ×ÁÎÉÅ ÓÅÂÅ ÐÒÉÚÎÁËÏ× ÏÐÒÅÄÅÌÅÎÎÏÇÏ ÞÅÌÏ×ÅËÁ. éÄÅÎÔÉÆÉËÁÃÉÑ ÉÇÒÁÅÔ
> ÏÇÒÏÍÎÕÀ ÒÏÌØ × ÓÎÏ×ÉÄÅÎÉÑÈ, × Ô×ÏÒÞÅÓÔ×Å, × ÍÅÞÔÁÈ. ðÓÉÈÏÌÏÇÉÞÅÓËÉÊ ÓÍÙÓÌ
> é. Ó×ÏÄÉÔÓÑ Ë ÒÁÓÛÉÒÅÎÉÀ ËÒÕÇÁ ÐÅÒÅÖÉ×ÁÎÉÊ, Ë ÏÂÏÇÁÝÅÎÉÀ ×ÎÕÔÒÅÎÎÅÇÏ
> ÏÐÙÔÁ".
>
> Identification (Freud) - the equating, making similar, of oneself to
> another
> personality, the adoption by oneself of the characteristics of a specific
> person. Identification plays a huge role in reminisences, dreams and
> creativity. The psychological sense of identification comes down to the
> widening of one's circle of experiences (perezhivania), to the enrichment
> of
> innner life.
>
> "ìÉÞÎÏÓÔØ - ÔÅÒÍÉÎ, ÏÚÎÁÞÁÀÝÉÊ ÅÄÉÎÓÔ×Ï É ÉÎÄÉ×ÉÄÕÁÌØÎÏÓÔØ ×ÓÅÈ ÖÉÚÎÅÎÎÙÈ
> É
> ÐÓÉÈÏÌÏÇÉÞÅÓËÉÈ ÐÒÏÑ×ÌÅÎÉÊ ÞÅÌÏ×ÅËÁ; ÞÅÌÏ×ÅË, ÓÏÚÎÁÀÝÉÊ ÓÁÍ ÓÅÂÑ ËÁË
> ÏÐÒÅÄÅÌÅÎÎÏÅ ÉÎÄÉ×ÉÄÕÁÌØÎÏÅ ÅÄÉÎÓÔ×Ï É ÔÏÖÄÅÓÔ×Ï ×Ï ×ÓÅÈ ÐÒÏÃÅÓÓÁÈ
> ÉÚÍÅÎÅÎÉÑ, ÐÒÏÉÓÈÏÄÑÝÉÈ × ÏÒÇÁÎÉÚÍÅ É ÐÓÉÈÉËÅ, ÅÓÔØ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔØ. âÏÌÅÚÎØ ì.
> ×ÙÒÁÖÁÅÔÓÑ × ÒÁÓÐÁÄÅ ÜÔÏÇÏ ÅÄÉÎÓÔ×Á"
>
> Personality is a term indicating a unity in the indivualenss of all
> everyday
> life and psychological manifestation of persons; a person (man) accepting
> himself as a certain individual unity and entity in all processes of
> change
> that take place in the organism and the psyche - this is personality.
> Disease of personality is expressed in the disintegration of this unity.
>
> é ÅÝÅ: ÷ "ðÓÉÈÏÌÏÇÉÉ ÉÓËÕÓÓÔ×Á" × ÇÌÁ×Å Ï "çÁÍÌÅÔÅ" ÷ÙÇÏÔÓËÉÊ ÁËÃÅÎÔÉÒÕÅÔ
> ÐÏÎÑÔÉÅ "×ÔÏÒÏÇÏ ÒÏÖÄÅÎÉÑ" . ÷ ÒÁÂÏÔÁÈ á.î. ìÅÏÎÔØÅ×Á ÔÏÖÅ ×ÓÔÒÅÞÁÅÔÓÑ
> ÜÔÏÔ
> ÔÅÒÍÉÎ × Ó×ÑÚÉ Ó ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÅÍ ÓÁÍÏÓÏÚÎÁÎÉÑ × ÐÏÄÒÏÓÔËÏ×ÏÍ ×ÏÚÒÁÓÔÅ. And
> also:
> In *Psychology of Art *in the chapter on Hamlet Vygotsky accentuates the
> concept, "second birth." In the works of AN Leontiev one also encounters
> this term in connection with the development of selfconsciousness during
> adolescence.
>
>
> --
>
> ó Õ×ÁÖÅÎÉÅÍ,
>
> â.í.
> mailto:borlogic@orexovo.net<borlogic@orexovo.net>
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Received on Sat Nov 24 14:14 PST 2007