RE: [xmca] Boris assists Mike assists Eric

I think identity is fairly central to Lave & Wenger's legitimate peripheral
participation. I interpret their's as a model in which learning is a process
of becoming a type of person (i.e. a full member in a particular community).
Their work shares many of the same premises as language socialization which
posits not only that we learn language through being socialized into
particular speech communities, but also that we are socialized to the
ideologies of those communities through language.

Wenger's later "communities of practice" presents a much fuller discussion
of identity than was initially developed by L&W. For one, he accounts for
membership in multiple communities. Similarly, Eva Lam explores the impact
on identity of being simultaneously socialized into multiple speech
communities.

Adam


-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf Of ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 12:21 PM
To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [xmca] Boris assists Mike assists Eric



            Wow, Boris & Mike:

That is truely enlightening. I appreciate the formation of the ideal that
has evolved from this discourse. I was floundering at first Mike, regarding
your comment on superego, but having read and reread the post from Boris I
now concur that personality research is not for the collective but rather
for the understanding of cultural influences upon development.
Mike, in your opinion does Lave and Wagner's research on legitimate
peripheral participation assist in the research pertaining to identity?

Thank you Andy for beginning this fabulous thread

grateful for the discourse,
not dead yet,
eric


      To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
      cc: Boris Meshcheryakov <borlogic@orexovo.net>
      bcc:
      Subject: Fwd: Fwd: [xmca] Vygotsky on Identity?
"Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com>
Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
11/23/2007 08:50 AM PST
Please respond to mcole <font size=-1></font>





















In red below is my attempt at translation of a note from Boris Mescheryakov
re identity and personality in LSV. Boris, whose work you can read in the
Companion to Vygotsky and elsewhere was kind enough to look up relevant
passages from LSV. I probably have not done the translation justice, but
most all of this exists in English and others more knowledgeable of Russian
can straighten things out.

It appears were are dealing with issues that are not usefully reduced to
either or....... again.
mike

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Boris Meshcheryakov < borlogic@orexovo.net>
Date: Nov 23, 2007 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: Fwd: [xmca] Vygotsky on Identity?
To: Mike Cole <mcole@weber.ucsd.edu>


úÄÒÁ×ÓÔ×ÕÊ, Mike.
ðÏ-×ÉÄÉÍÏÍÕ, ÐÒÁ×Ù ÔÅ, ËÔÏ ÓÞÉÔÁÅÔ, ÞÔÏ ÐÒÏÂÌÅÍÁ ÉÄÅÎÔÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ,
ÉÄÅÎÔÉÆÉËÁÃÉÉ, ÓÁÍÏÏÐÒÅÄÅÌÅÎÉÑ (ÓÁÍÏÄÅÔÅÒÍÉÎÁÃÉÉ) ÎÅ ÂÙÌÉ ÓÁÍÏÓÔÏÑÔÅÌØÎÙÍ
ÐÒÅÄÍÅÔÏÍ ÒÁÚÍÙÛÌÅÎÉÊ É ÉÓÓÌÅÄÏ×ÁÎÉÊ ÷ÙÇÏÔÓËÏÇÏ. íÏÇÕ ÌÉÛØ ÐÒÅÄÌÏÖÉÔØ
ÎÅËÏÔÏÒÙÅ ÅÇÏ ×ÙÓËÁÚÙ×ÁÎÉÑ Ï ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÉ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ É ÓÁÍÏÓÏÚÎÁÎÉÉ (ÜÔÕ Ó×ÑÚØ
÷ÙÇÏÔÓËÉÊ ÞÅÔËÏ ÏÐÉÓÙ×ÁÌ):

Apparently, those who believe that the problem of identity, identification,
self determination were not independent subjects of thought and
investigation by LSV are correct. I can only propos a few of his statements
on the development of personality and self consciousness (this connection
Vygotsky clearly did describe)


?...ÏÔÌÉÞÉÅ ÒÅÂÅÎËÁ ÏÔ ÐÏÄÒÏÓÔËÁ ÍÏÖÅÔ ÂÙÔØ ÌÕÞÛÅ ×ÓÅÇÏ ×ÙÒÁÖÅÎÏ ÐÏÌÏÖÅÎÉÅÍ
çÅÇÅÌÑ, ËÏÔÏÒÙÊ ÒÁÚÌÉÞÁÌ ×ÅÝÉ × ÓÅÂÅ É ×ÅÝÉ ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ. ïÎ ÇÏ×ÏÒÉÌ, ÞÔÏ ×ÓÅ
×ÅÝÉ ÓÕÔØ ÓÎÁÞÁÌÁ × ÓÅÂÅ, ÎÏ ÎÁ ÜÔÏÍ ÄÅÌÏ ÎÅ ÏÓÔÁÎÁ×ÌÉ×ÁÅÔÓÑ É × ÐÒÏÃÅÓÓÅ
ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÑ ×ÅÝØ ÐÒÅ×ÒÁÝÁÅÔÓÑ × ×ÅÝØ ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ. ôÁË, ÇÏ×ÏÒÉÌ ÏÎ, ÞÅÌÏ×ÅË × ÓÅÂÅ
ÅÓÔØ ÒÅÂÅÎÏË, ÚÁÄÁÞÁ ËÏÔÏÒÏÇÏ ÓÏÓÔÏÉÔ ÎÅ × ÔÏÍ, ÞÔÏÂÙ ÏÓÔÁ×ÁÔØÓÑ × ÜÔÏÍ
ÁÂÓÔÒÁËÔÎÏÍ É ÎÅÒÁÚ×ÉÔÏÍ "× ÓÅÂÅ", Á × ÔÏÍ, ÞÔÏÂÙ ÓÔÁÔØ ÔÁËÖÅ É ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ
ÔÅÍ, ÞÅÍ ÏÎ ÐÏËÁ ÅÓÔØ ÌÉÛØ × ÓÅÂÅ, ÉÍÅÎÎÏ ÓÔÁÔØ Ó×ÏÂÏÄÎÙÍ É ÒÁÚÕÍÎÙÍ
ÓÕÝÅÓÔ×ÏÍ. ÷ÏÔ ÜÔÏ ÐÒÅ×ÒÁÝÅÎÉÅ ÒÅÂÅÎËÁ ÉÚ ÞÅÌÏ×ÅËÁ × ÓÅÂÅ × ÐÏÄÒÏÓÔËÁ ?
ÞÅÌÏ×ÅËÁ ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ ? É ÓÏÓÔÁ×ÌÑÅÔ ÇÌÁ×ÎÏÅ ÓÏÄÅÒÖÁÎÉÅ ×ÓÅÇÏ ËÒÉÚÉÓÁ
ÐÅÒÅÈÏÄÎÏÇÏ ×ÏÚÒÁÓÔÁ. üÔÏ ÅÓÔØ ÜÐÏÈÁ ÓÏÚÒÅ×ÁÎÉÑ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ É ÍÉÒÏ×ÏÚÚÒÅÎÉÑ...?
(ðÅÄÏÌÏÇÉÑ ÐÏÄÒÏÓÔËÁ, óÏÂÒ. ÓÏÞ., Ô. 4, Ó. 199).

"the difference between child and adolescent may be best expressed by
Hegel's position that distinguished things in themselves and things for
oneself. He said that the all things are initially in themselves, but
matters do not stop at this point and in the process of development the
thing turns into a thing for onself. Thus, he said, a person (man) in
himself is a child, whose task is to leave behind that abstract and
undeveloped "in himself" and in so doing, in order to become for himself in
a way that he is in the meantime only in himself, that is, to become a free
and intelligent being. This very transformation of the child into an adult
(man) in himself in the adolescent -- a person (man) for himself--
constitutes the major content of the entire crisis of this transitional age.
It is an epoch of the maturation of personality and world view (Pedology of
the Adolescent, Comp Works, v4, p. 199)

"ìÉÞÎÏÓÔØ ÓÔÁÎÏ×ÉÔÓÑ ÄÌÑ ÓÅÂÑ ÔÅÍ, ÞÔÏ ÏÎÁ ÅÓÔØ × ÓÅÂÅ, ÞÅÒÅÚ ÔÏ, ÞÔÏ ÏÎÁ
ÐÒÅÄßÑ×ÌÑÅÔ ÄÌÑ ÄÒÕÇÉÈ. üÔÏ É ÅÓÔØ ÐÒÏÃÅÓÓ ÓÔÁÎÏ×ÌÅÎÉÑ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ" (éÓÔÏÒÉÑ
ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÑ ÷ðæ, óÏÂÒ. ÓÏÞ., Ô. 3, Ó. 144). (A) Personality becomes for
itself, when it has previously been in itself, through what it manifests
through others (History of Dev of HPF, Coll. Works, Vol 3, p. 144)

ïÞÅÎØ ×ÁÖÎÏÅ ÄÏÂÁ×ÌÅÎÉÅ ÉÚ "éÓÔÏÒÉÉ ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÑ ÷ðæ": "The following addition
from same work is very important:

?äÖ. âÏÌÄÕÉÎ ÓÐÒÁ×ÅÄÌÉ×Ï ÏÔÍÅÔÉÌ, ÞÔÏ ÐÏÎÑÔÉÅ Ï "Ñ" ÒÁÚ×É×ÁÅÔÓÑ Õ ÒÅÂÅÎËÁ ÉÚ
ÐÏÎÑÔÉÑ Ï ÄÒÕÇÉÈ. ðÏÎÑÔÉÅ ?ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔØ? ÅÓÔØ, Ô.Ï., ÓÏÃÉÁÌØÎÏÅ, ÏÔÒÁÖÅÎÎÏÅ
ÐÏÎÑÔÉÅ, ÓÔÒÏÑÝÅÅÓÑ ÎÁ ÏÓÎÏ×Å ÔÏÇÏ, ÞÔÏ ÒÅÂÅÎÏË ÐÒÉÍÅÎÑÅÔ ÐÏ ÏÔÎÏÛÅÎÉÀ Ë
ÓÁÍÏÍÕ ÓÅÂÅ ÔÅ ÐÒÉÅÍÙ ÐÒÉÓÐÏÓÏÂÌÅÎÉÑ, ËÏÔÏÒÙÅ ÏÎ ÐÒÉÍÅÎÑÅÔ ÐÏ ÏÔÎÏÛÅÎÉÀ Ë
ÄÒÕÇÉÍ. ÷ÏÔ ÐÏÞÅÍÕ ÍÏÖÎÏ ÓËÁÚÁÔØ, ÞÔÏ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔØ ÅÓÔØ ÓÏÃÉÁÌØÎÏÅ × ÎÁÓ? (Ô.
3, Ó. 324/ ÖÉÒÎ. ÛÒÉÆÔ ÍÏÊ ? â.í.).

James Baldwin correctly noted that the concept of "I" develops in a child
from the concept of others. The concept, personality, that is, the social,
reflected, concept, is built on the basis of the fact that the child uses in
relationship to himself those means of adaptation which he uses in
relationship to others. This is why it is possible to say that personality
is the social in us. (vol 3, p. 324)



éÚ "ðÓÉÈÏÌÏÇÉÞÅÓËÏÇÏ ÓÌÏ×ÁÒÑ" ÷ÁÒÛÁ×Ù É ÷ÙÇÏÔÓËÏÇÏ (1931) From Varshava and
Vygotsky (1931) *Psychological Dictionary*:

"éÄÅÎÔÉÆÉËÁÃÉÑ (æÒÅÊÄ) - ÏÔÏÖÄÅÓÔ×ÌÅÎÉÅ, ÕÐÏÄÏÂÌÅÎÉÅ ÓÅÂÑ ÄÒÕÇÏÊ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔÉ,
ÐÒÉÐÉÓÙ×ÁÎÉÅ ÓÅÂÅ ÐÒÉÚÎÁËÏ× ÏÐÒÅÄÅÌÅÎÎÏÇÏ ÞÅÌÏ×ÅËÁ. éÄÅÎÔÉÆÉËÁÃÉÑ ÉÇÒÁÅÔ
ÏÇÒÏÍÎÕÀ ÒÏÌØ × ÓÎÏ×ÉÄÅÎÉÑÈ, × Ô×ÏÒÞÅÓÔ×Å, × ÍÅÞÔÁÈ. ðÓÉÈÏÌÏÇÉÞÅÓËÉÊ ÓÍÙÓÌ
é. Ó×ÏÄÉÔÓÑ Ë ÒÁÓÛÉÒÅÎÉÀ ËÒÕÇÁ ÐÅÒÅÖÉ×ÁÎÉÊ, Ë ÏÂÏÇÁÝÅÎÉÀ ×ÎÕÔÒÅÎÎÅÇÏ
ÏÐÙÔÁ".

Identification (Freud) - the equating, making similar, of oneself to another
personality, the adoption by oneself of the characteristics of a specific
person. Identification plays a huge role in reminisences, dreams and
creativity. The psychological sense of identification comes down to the
widening of one's circle of experiences (perezhivania), to the enrichment of
innner life.

"ìÉÞÎÏÓÔØ - ÔÅÒÍÉÎ, ÏÚÎÁÞÁÀÝÉÊ ÅÄÉÎÓÔ×Ï É ÉÎÄÉ×ÉÄÕÁÌØÎÏÓÔØ ×ÓÅÈ ÖÉÚÎÅÎÎÙÈ É
ÐÓÉÈÏÌÏÇÉÞÅÓËÉÈ ÐÒÏÑ×ÌÅÎÉÊ ÞÅÌÏ×ÅËÁ; ÞÅÌÏ×ÅË, ÓÏÚÎÁÀÝÉÊ ÓÁÍ ÓÅÂÑ ËÁË
ÏÐÒÅÄÅÌÅÎÎÏÅ ÉÎÄÉ×ÉÄÕÁÌØÎÏÅ ÅÄÉÎÓÔ×Ï É ÔÏÖÄÅÓÔ×Ï ×Ï ×ÓÅÈ ÐÒÏÃÅÓÓÁÈ
ÉÚÍÅÎÅÎÉÑ, ÐÒÏÉÓÈÏÄÑÝÉÈ × ÏÒÇÁÎÉÚÍÅ É ÐÓÉÈÉËÅ, ÅÓÔØ ÌÉÞÎÏÓÔØ. âÏÌÅÚÎØ ì.
×ÙÒÁÖÁÅÔÓÑ × ÒÁÓÐÁÄÅ ÜÔÏÇÏ ÅÄÉÎÓÔ×Á"

Personality is a term indicating a unity in the indivualenss of all everyday
life and psychological manifestation of persons; a person (man) accepting
himself as a certain individual unity and entity in all processes of change
that take place in the organism and the psyche - this is personality.
Disease of personality is expressed in the disintegration of this unity.

é ÅÝÅ: ÷ "ðÓÉÈÏÌÏÇÉÉ ÉÓËÕÓÓÔ×Á" × ÇÌÁ×Å Ï "çÁÍÌÅÔÅ" ÷ÙÇÏÔÓËÉÊ ÁËÃÅÎÔÉÒÕÅÔ
ÐÏÎÑÔÉÅ "×ÔÏÒÏÇÏ ÒÏÖÄÅÎÉÑ" . ÷ ÒÁÂÏÔÁÈ á.î. ìÅÏÎÔØÅ×Á ÔÏÖÅ ×ÓÔÒÅÞÁÅÔÓÑ ÜÔÏÔ
ÔÅÒÍÉÎ × Ó×ÑÚÉ Ó ÒÁÚ×ÉÔÉÅÍ ÓÁÍÏÓÏÚÎÁÎÉÑ × ÐÏÄÒÏÓÔËÏ×ÏÍ ×ÏÚÒÁÓÔÅ. And also:
In *Psychology of Art *in the chapter on Hamlet Vygotsky accentuates the
concept, "second birth." In the works of AN Leontiev one also encounters
this term in connection with the development of selfconsciousness during
adolescence.


--

ó Õ×ÁÖÅÎÉÅÍ,

â.í.
mailto:borlogic@orexovo.net<borlogic@orexovo.net>
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca

_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
Received on Sat Nov 24 13:55 PST 2007