Re: [xmca] Compatible

The following seems critical, Martin:

If we recognize that action itself has intrinsic
intentionality, then certainly the child can live in a social, interpersonal
unity without forming (yet) *representations* of it.

The work on perception of intentional motion in early infancy is very
relevant here and argues against the explicit representational pov. I am not
sure that Mike T is adopting the latter position but will have to re-read.
mike
On Nov 7, 2007 12:02 PM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:

> I haven't yet read all of Tomasello's paper, and so I haven't got to his
> discussion of ontogenesis. But it's clear that he is assuming what the
> majority of cognitive scientists assume, that recognition of
> intentionality
> in another's actions requires a mental representation of their mental
> representations. 'Theory of mind' is just this: the child must have a
> theory
> - an explicit representation - of the mental states - themselves
> representational - of the other, in order to understand their actions.
>
> Even Searle (on whose speech act theory a lot of this paper is based)
> recognized that there are 2 kinds of intention: prior intention (in mind,
> in
> his view), and intention-in-action. If we attribute all intentionality to
> mental representation then the child must be a little psychologist,
> shortly
> after or even at birth. If we recognize that action itself has intrinsic
> intentionality, then certainly the child can live in a social,
> interpersonal
> unity without forming (yet) *representations* of it.
>
> I have other questions too, but this will suffice for now.
>
>
> On 11/7/07 1:27 PM, "Carol Macdonald" <carolmacdon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A theory of mind is essentially interested in how soon young children
> > realise that other people have minds. Instrumentality is not part of
> *their
> > * theory, but Mike you are of course right, and we might say that
> getting
> > attention is the primary act of instrumentality and getting the adult
> (maybe
> > a willing sibling) to do something would be the secondary level/kind of
> > instrumentality.
> >
> > It's such an interesting topic that maybe one of our lurkers would want
> to
> > do a study for a graduate study? How about that?
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> > On 07/11/2007, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Carol-- I found this comment interesting: "However, a theory of mind
> >> would
> >> not
> >>> get as far as instrumentality." What do you have in mind here? Isn't
> >> pointing to get the attention of another an instrumental act?
> >>
> >> Presumably, what Tomasello and a LOT of others seem to arguing is that
> >> there
> >> is a primal, ready at birth, inter-personal/social unity of self and
> other
> >> that serves as the grounding for all forms of further development.
> >> Development from this already and always there foundation involves
> forms
> >> of
> >> differentiation and incorporation/appropriation that are also mutually
> >> accomplished.
> >>
> >> A huge subject.
> >> mike
> >>
> >> On Nov 7, 2007 9:35 AM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Nov 7, 2007 8:45 AM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hello Mike
> >>>> Yes, this is definitely compatible. However, a theory of mind would
> >> not
> >>>> get as far as instrumentality. The research is certainly very
> >>> interesting,
> >>>> but I think that it could go further by testing the instrumentality
> >> and
> >>> may
> >>>> give some kind of rating of the infant's pleasure. This may be for
> >> other
> >>>> people to try.
> >>>> Regards
> >>>> Carol
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> "Pax Te Cum"
> >>>> 6 Andover Road
> >>>> Westdene
> >>>> 2092 Johannesburg
> >>>> 011 673 9265 082 562 1050
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> "Pax Te Cum"
> >>> 6 Andover Road
> >>> Westdene
> >>> 2092 Johannesburg
> >>> 011 673 9265 082 562 1050
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> >>>
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> >>
> >
> >
>
>
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Received on Wed Nov 7 13:59 PST 2007