Re: [xmca] Vygotsky's "objective" psychology

Andy,
thank you,
maria

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Blunden" <ablunden@mira.net>
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky's "objective" psychology

"Consciousness as a problem in the psychology of behavior"
http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1925/consciousness.htm
Is that what you wanted?
Andy
At 08:44 AM 19/05/2007 -0300, you wrote:
>Would you please tell us how can we get it online?
>thank you
>maria
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Emily Duvall" <duvalleg@comcast.net>
>To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 12:10 AM
>Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky's "objective" psychology
>
>
> > In the 1925 "Consciousness as a problem in the psychology of behavior"
> > (available online by the way), Vygotsky says excluding consciousness
> > from the domain of scientific psychology preserves the dualism and
> > spiritualism of subjective psychology. In discussing the subjective, he
> > notes the following:.
> >
> > "In this view a subject's report is in no sense an act of
> > self-observation that interferes like getting a spoon of tar into the
> > barrel of honey of objective scientific investigation. No
> > self-observation at all. The subject is not at all in the situation of
> > an observer; he does not help an experimenter observe reflexes hidden
> > from his view. To the very end, and during the actual giving of an
> > account, a subject fully remains the object of an experiment; but
> > certain changes or transformations are introduced into the experiment
> > itself, through subsequent questioning; a new irritant is introduced (a
> > new questioning), and a new reflex enables us to assess the undetected
> > portions of the preceding one. The entire experiment passes through a
> > "double lens".
> > It is necessary to include such a passing of an experience through
> > the secondary reactions of consciousness in the methods of psychological
> > investigation. An individual's behavior and the establishment of new
> > conditional reactions are governed not only by disclosed, complete, and
> > fully detected reactions, but also by reactions, undisclosed in their
> > external part, invisible to the naked eye."
> > Later he states "the mechanism of social behavior and the mechanism
> > of consciousness are the same. Speech, on the one hand, is a system of
> > "reflexes for social contact", and, on the other, a system, most
> > eminently, of reflexes of consciousness, a system for reflecting other
> > systems.... The mechanism for knowing oneself (self-awareness) is the
> > same as the mechanism for knowing others....The individual aspect of
> > consciousness is constructed as derived and secondary, based on the
> > social and exactly according to its model."
> >
> > My understanding, then, of objective psychology is that it is not
> > based on a distinction of 'what I the scientist observe' about the
> > person/process as being more scientific than 'what you observe about
> > yourself', but that objective psychology includes as scientific 'what I
> > the scientist observe' and 'what you are aware of and can tell me '.
> > From Problems of Method:
> >
> > "We regard our method as important because it helps to objectify inner
> > psychological processes; stimulus-response methods are objective, [p.
> > 75] but they are limited to the study of external responses that are
> > usually in the subject's repertoire to begin with. We believe that our
> > approach to objectifying inner psychological processes is much more
> > adequate, where the goals of psychological research are concerned, than
> > the method of studying preexisting, objective responses. Only the
> > objectification of the inner process guarantees access to specific forms
> > of higher behavior as opposed to subordinate forms."
> >
> > Ultimately, an objective psychology is dialogic and dialectical...Am I
> > on the right track?
> > ~ Em
> >
> >
> > Andy Blunden wrote:
> > > In Chapter 1 of "Crisis in Psychology" Vygotsky talks a lot about
> > > "subjective psychology", which might shed more light on exactly what
> > > he meant by "objective psychology".
> > > I think he is talking about the methodology for collecting and
> > > analysing data. "Subjective Psychology" regards data accessible by
> > > introspection as the only truly valid data for psychology. As opposed
> > > to psychoanalysis, behaviourism, reflexology and his own methods of
> > > experimentation, which in different ways demand that material data
> > > determined by observation by another person must form the basis for
> > > scientific study.
> > > Andy
> > > At 03:40 PM 18/05/2007 -0500, you wrote:
> > >> This summer I'm trying to catch up on some long-overdue reading. I've
> > >> begun
> > >> with Vol. 3 of the Plenum series, the Collected Works of L. S.
>Vygotsky:
> > >> Problems with the History and Theory of Psychology.
> > >>
> > >> First, Rene van der Veer's Foreword and introductory chapter are well
> > >> worth
> > >> reading, particularly in informing our periodic discussions of
> > >> problems with
> > >> translation from one language to another; and especially of
translating
> > >> Vygotsky, who "never rewrote a text for the sake of improving its
> > >> style and
> > >> readability" (van der Veer, p. v).
> > >>
> > >> Vol. 3 of the English-language version is actually Vol. 1 of the
>Russian
> > >> collection, and it includes Leont'ev's introduction to the Russian
> > >> series
> > >> (Leont'ev's intro is titled "On Vygotsky's Creative Development").
I'm
> > >> puzzled by some of the phrasing, and wonder if I'm coming up against
a
> > >> translation issue (which happened when I first read of Vygotsky's
> > >> "genetic"
> > >> method, which is developmental and not biological, as I'd originally
> > >> assumed). Leont'ev says that Vygotsky sought "to build a new,
objective
> > >> psychology." I'm having trouble with the term "objective" here. My
> > >> sense of
> > >> Vygotsky's project was that it involved what we now think of as
> > >> constructivism, which is typically positioned against objectivism. At
> > >> the
> > >> same time, I know that some use the term "object" to refer to the
> > >> goal-oriented nature of activity. Can anyone help me with my trouble
in
> > >> understanding the use of the term "objective" in this context?
> > >>
> > >> One final thing: I'm aware that there's some disagreement over the
> > >> extent to
> > >> which Vygotsky's work is Marxist. Leont'ev unambiguously describes
> > >> Vygotsky's work as inherently Marxist (e.g., "[Vygotsky's] new
> > >> psychology
> > >> which dealt with the most complex phenomena of the mental life of
man,
> > >> including consciousness, could only evolve on the basis of Marxism"
> > >> (Leont'ev, p. 15). I'm not sure why others would think
> > >> differently--perhaps
> > >> someone who finds Vygotsky insuffiently Marxist could clarify.
> > >>
> > >> In any case, I hope that your own summer work is off to a good start.
> > >>
> > >> Peter
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Peter Smagorinsky
> > >> The University of Georgia
> > >> Department of Language and Literacy Education
> > >> 125 Aderhold Hall
> > >> Athens, GA 30602-7123
> > >> smago@uga.edu /fax:706-542-4509/phone:706-542-4507/
> > >> http://www.coe.uga.edu/lle/faculty/smagorinsky/index.html
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > > Andy Blunden. The Subject -
> > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/works/the-subject.htm
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > He only earns his freedom and his life, who takes them every day by
storm.
> > -- Johann Wolfgang Goethe
> >
> > Emily Duvall
> > Doctoral Candidate (ABD) / Graduate Assistant-Instructor
> > Language and Literacy Education (LLED)
> > Department of Curriculum and Instruction
> > College of Education
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> >
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Received on Sat May 19 06:20 PDT 2007