Re: [xmca] Vygotsky's "objective" psychology

Emily,
thank you,
maria

----- Original Message -----
From: "Emily Duvall" <duvalleg@comcast.net>
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky's "objective" psychology

> It's available from the Lev Vygotsky Archive
> (http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/)
> at:
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1925/consciousness.htm
> ~ Em
>
> maria judith wrote:
> > Would you please tell us how can we get it online?
> > thank you
> > maria
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Emily Duvall" <duvalleg@comcast.net>
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 12:10 AM
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky's "objective" psychology
> >
> >
> >
> >> In the 1925 "Consciousness as a problem in the psychology of behavior"
> >> (available online by the way), Vygotsky says excluding consciousness
> >> from the domain of scientific psychology preserves the dualism and
> >> spiritualism of subjective psychology. In discussing the subjective, he
> >> notes the following:.
> >>
> >> "In this view a subject's report is in no sense an act of
> >> self-observation that interferes like getting a spoon of tar into the
> >> barrel of honey of objective scientific investigation. No
> >> self-observation at all. The subject is not at all in the situation of
> >> an observer; he does not help an experimenter observe reflexes hidden
> >> from his view. To the very end, and during the actual giving of an
> >> account, a subject fully remains the object of an experiment; but
> >> certain changes or transformations are introduced into the experiment
> >> itself, through subsequent questioning; a new irritant is introduced (a
> >> new questioning), and a new reflex enables us to assess the undetected
> >> portions of the preceding one. The entire experiment passes through a
> >> "double lens".
> >> It is necessary to include such a passing of an experience through
> >> the secondary reactions of consciousness in the methods of
psychological
> >> investigation. An individual's behavior and the establishment of new
> >> conditional reactions are governed not only by disclosed, complete, and
> >> fully detected reactions, but also by reactions, undisclosed in their
> >> external part, invisible to the naked eye."
> >> Later he states "the mechanism of social behavior and the mechanism
> >> of consciousness are the same. Speech, on the one hand, is a system of
> >> "reflexes for social contact", and, on the other, a system, most
> >> eminently, of reflexes of consciousness, a system for reflecting other
> >> systems.... The mechanism for knowing oneself (self-awareness) is the
> >> same as the mechanism for knowing others....The individual aspect of
> >> consciousness is constructed as derived and secondary, based on the
> >> social and exactly according to its model."
> >>
> >> My understanding, then, of objective psychology is that it is not
> >> based on a distinction of 'what I the scientist observe' about the
> >> person/process as being more scientific than 'what you observe about
> >> yourself', but that objective psychology includes as scientific 'what I
> >> the scientist observe' and 'what you are aware of and can tell me '.
> >> From Problems of Method:
> >>
> >> "We regard our method as important because it helps to objectify inner
> >> psychological processes; stimulus-response methods are objective, [p.
> >> 75] but they are limited to the study of external responses that are
> >> usually in the subject's repertoire to begin with. We believe that our
> >> approach to objectifying inner psychological processes is much more
> >> adequate, where the goals of psychological research are concerned, than
> >> the method of studying preexisting, objective responses. Only the
> >> objectification of the inner process guarantees access to specific
forms
> >> of higher behavior as opposed to subordinate forms."
> >>
> >> Ultimately, an objective psychology is dialogic and dialectical...Am I
> >> on the right track?
> >> ~ Em
> >>
> >>
> >> Andy Blunden wrote:
> >>
> >>> In Chapter 1 of "Crisis in Psychology" Vygotsky talks a lot about
> >>> "subjective psychology", which might shed more light on exactly what
> >>> he meant by "objective psychology".
> >>> I think he is talking about the methodology for collecting and
> >>> analysing data. "Subjective Psychology" regards data accessible by
> >>> introspection as the only truly valid data for psychology. As opposed
> >>> to psychoanalysis, behaviourism, reflexology and his own methods of
> >>> experimentation, which in different ways demand that material data
> >>> determined by observation by another person must form the basis for
> >>> scientific study.
> >>> Andy
> >>> At 03:40 PM 18/05/2007 -0500, you wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> This summer I'm trying to catch up on some long-overdue reading. I've
> >>>> begun
> >>>> with Vol. 3 of the Plenum series, the Collected Works of L. S.
> >>>>
> > Vygotsky:
> >
> >>>> Problems with the History and Theory of Psychology.
> >>>>
> >>>> First, Rene van der Veer's Foreword and introductory chapter are well
> >>>> worth
> >>>> reading, particularly in informing our periodic discussions of
> >>>> problems with
> >>>> translation from one language to another; and especially of
translating
> >>>> Vygotsky, who "never rewrote a text for the sake of improving its
> >>>> style and
> >>>> readability" (van der Veer, p. v).
> >>>>
> >>>> Vol. 3 of the English-language version is actually Vol. 1 of the
> >>>>
> > Russian
> >
> >>>> collection, and it includes Leont'ev's introduction to the Russian
> >>>> series
> >>>> (Leont'ev's intro is titled "On Vygotsky's Creative Development").
I'm
> >>>> puzzled by some of the phrasing, and wonder if I'm coming up against
a
> >>>> translation issue (which happened when I first read of Vygotsky's
> >>>> "genetic"
> >>>> method, which is developmental and not biological, as I'd originally
> >>>> assumed). Leont'ev says that Vygotsky sought "to build a new,
objective
> >>>> psychology." I'm having trouble with the term "objective" here. My
> >>>> sense of
> >>>> Vygotsky's project was that it involved what we now think of as
> >>>> constructivism, which is typically positioned against objectivism. At
> >>>> the
> >>>> same time, I know that some use the term "object" to refer to the
> >>>> goal-oriented nature of activity. Can anyone help me with my trouble
in
> >>>> understanding the use of the term "objective" in this context?
> >>>>
> >>>> One final thing: I'm aware that there's some disagreement over the
> >>>> extent to
> >>>> which Vygotsky's work is Marxist. Leont'ev unambiguously describes
> >>>> Vygotsky's work as inherently Marxist (e.g., "[Vygotsky's] new
> >>>> psychology
> >>>> which dealt with the most complex phenomena of the mental life of
man,
> >>>> including consciousness, could only evolve on the basis of Marxism"
> >>>> (Leont'ev, p. 15). I'm not sure why others would think
> >>>> differently--perhaps
> >>>> someone who finds Vygotsky insuffiently Marxist could clarify.
> >>>>
> >>>> In any case, I hope that your own summer work is off to a good start.
> >>>>
> >>>> Peter
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Peter Smagorinsky
> >>>> The University of Georgia
> >>>> Department of Language and Literacy Education
> >>>> 125 Aderhold Hall
> >>>> Athens, GA 30602-7123
> >>>> smago@uga.edu /fax:706-542-4509/phone:706-542-4507/
> >>>> http://www.coe.uga.edu/lle/faculty/smagorinsky/index.html
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>
> >>> Andy Blunden. The Subject -
> >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/works/the-subject.htm
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> xmca mailing list
> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> He only earns his freedom and his life, who takes them every day by
storm.
> >> -- Johann Wolfgang Goethe
> >>
> >> Emily Duvall
> >> Doctoral Candidate (ABD) / Graduate Assistant-Instructor
> >> Language and Literacy Education (LLED)
> >> Department of Curriculum and Instruction
> >> College of Education
> >> Penn State University
> >> 256 Chambers Bldg.
> >> University Park , PA 16802
> >> 814-861-3315 (home)
> >> 814-404-6175 (cell)
> >> 814-863-4511 (office)
> >> FAX: 814-863-7602
> >> email: edd130@psu.edu
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
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> >
>
>
> --
> He only earns his freedom and his life, who takes them every day by storm.
> -- Johann Wolfgang Goethe
>
> Emily Duvall
> Doctoral Candidate (ABD) / Graduate Assistant-Instructor
> Language and Literacy Education (LLED)
> Department of Curriculum and Instruction
> College of Education
> Penn State University
> 256 Chambers Bldg.
> University Park , PA 16802
> 814-861-3315 (home)
> 814-404-6175 (cell)
> 814-863-4511 (office)
> FAX: 814-863-7602
> email: edd130@psu.edu
>
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Received on Sat May 19 06:19 PDT 2007