You are welcome!
Elina Lampert-Shepel, Ed.D.
Assistant Professor
Graduate School of Education
Mercy College New Teacher Residency Program
Mercy College
66 West 35th Street
New York, NY 10001
(212) 615 3367
I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of
it and it responds. It is free. But it is not free to do what a
violin string is supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it,
fix it in my violin and tighten it until it is taut. Only then it
is free to be a violin string.
Sir Rabindranath Tagore.
________________________________
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Beth Ferholt
Sent: Tue 1/16/2007 2:04 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Translating Vygotsky
This is very helpful! Thank you, Beth
On Jan 15, 2007, at 8:49 PM, Lampert-Shepel, Elina wrote:
> Beth and Michael,
> Your question Michael reminded me of what Daniil Elkonin in his
> research notes named 'the eternal dissatisfaction with yourself",
> the driving force of development, he believed that it was the
> source of the motivation of an acting person. Beth, I think the
> common ground of Vygotskian's "perezhivanie" and Deweyan's
> experience is the dynamic interplay of internal and external that
> leads to the qualitative shifts in the consciousness of an acting
> person. I read "pere' as overcoming "zhivanie" the existing way of
> living towards the new one.
>
> Elina
>
>
> Beth,
>
> It is interesting that you bring up Dewey's reference to James'
> metaphor. My favorite metaphor from Dewey in talking about
> experience was from Experience and Nature where he talked about
> consciousness in terms of sailing on a boat across the sea,
> navigating the currents and moving from port to port - same idea I
> think - the idea that we are always moving forwards. Thinking back
> to Stanislavskii I wonder if he would have said that an actor can
> never settle on a character, you never are who you are, you always
> are what you are doing - motivations arise in the course of action,
> they generate action, and they carry us in to the next motivation.
> Is this vital experience, the doing and the undergoing that you
> speak of?
>
> Michael
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Beth Ferholt
> Sent: Mon 1/15/2007 7:22 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Cc: Patrick Anderson; Matt Brown
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Translating Vygotsky
>
>
>
> Elina,
> Are you saying that Dewey's experience is a part of 'perezhivanie'?
> I have been thinking of the two terms as closely related, but not in
> this way.
> As I have been try to understand 'perezhivanie' I have been thinking
> about Dewey's need to talk about art to talk about experience. He
> argues that the form of art unites 'doing' and 'undergoing', and that
> it is this same process that makes an experience 'an experience'.
> The artist embodies the attitude of the perceiver because the artist
> frames art for the perceiver, while for Stanislavsky 'perezhivanie'
> is imitating another's physical actions in order to experience their
> emotions.
> I have also been thinking about Dewey's interest in the rhythm of the
> process which makes an experience future-oriented. He refers to
> William James writing that the course of consciousness is like the
> flights and perchings of a bird. This reminds me of Vasiluk's
> 'perezhivanie', of his description of the stages which constitute the
> state of consciousness which allows 'entering into'.
> I am not sure if this can help us understand Vygotsky's use of
> 'perezhivanie' --
> Beth
>
> On Jan 15, 2007, at 12:32 PM, Lampert-Shepel, Elina wrote:
>
>> I am a Russian speaker, but it doesn't make the task of translation
>> of "perezhivanie" easier. I've been struggling for years to find a
>> meaningful English translation for Vygotskian very important
>> concept of "novoobrazovaniye", i.e. new formation in the psyche ,
>> newly formed higher psychological function that transformed the
>> previous psychological functions as well as their connections in
>> the consciousness of an acting subject...if anyone has a word for
>> it, I would appreciate...Maybe there is something challenging with
>> translation into English of Russian gerund type nouns that reflect
>> a process of transformation and do not point to the result or end.
>>
>> I guess, the challenge is to grasp conceptual meanings in
>> translation rather than to have a direct translation of the word.
>> As for "perezhivanie," as far as I understand, for Vygotsky it was
>> a unit of analysis for the study of person and environment. I do
>> not have an English translation, but in his Pedology of Adolescent,
>> Vygotsky names "perezhivanie" to be a unit that helps to avoid the
>> dualism of individual and environment. According to Bozhovich, for
>> a short period of time Vygotsky considered "perezhivanie" as the
>> unit of psychological development in the study of the social
>> situation of development. Moreover, I do not know whether it was
>> included in the English translation, but in the last three pages of
>> Pedology of Adolescent, he discusses "perezhivanie' as a dynamic
>> unit of consciousness that allows to explore the attributes of
>> consciousness in their connection, while he considered memory,
>> thinking, etc., to be the elements. "Perezhivanie " is often
>> discussed in relation to emotion, but it seems that for Vygotsky it
>> is much more than emotional experience. The word itself for a
>> Russian speaker, does not sound as a term, it can be easily used in
>> poetry. I do not mind "experience" in Dewean sense, but
>> "perezhivanie" is rather a reflection of the experience, the
>> internal both emotional and cognitive process in child's
>> consciousness that is a transformational for future development.
>>
>> That's my thinking so far...
>>
>> Elina
>>
>>
>> Elina Lampert-Shepel, Ed.D..
>> Assistant Professor
>> Graduate School of Education
>> Mercy College New Teacher Residency Program
>> Mercy College
>> 66 West 35th Street
>> New York, NY 10001
>> (212) 615 3367
>>
>>
>> I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of
>> it and it responds. It is free. But it is not free to do what a
>> violin string is supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it,
>> fix it in my violin and tighten it until it is taut. Only then it
>> is free to be a violin string.
>> Sir Rabindranath Tagore.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In Serbo-Croatian there are also two expressions - somewhat
>> similar to
>> the Russian ones:
>> DOZHIVLYAY AND ISKUSTVO
>>
>> The Spanish/Portuguese "VIVENCIA" is very descriptive and beautiful!
>>
>> Ana
>>
>> Silvio Marquardt wrote:
>>> Dear friends,
>>>
>>> I think that Romanic languages could also help in handling the
>>> Russian concept:
>>>
>>> PEREZHIVANIE and OPIT (Russian)
>>> ERLEBNIS and ERFAHRUNG (German)
>>> VIVENCIA and EXPERIENCIA (Portuguese/Spanish)
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Silvio
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Leif Strandberg <leifstrandberg.ab@telia.com> wrote: Hi
>>>
>>> I am not at Russian speaker (or reader)
>>>
>>> Da i
>>>
>>> to me the word-meaning of perezhivania sounds and look very
>>> much Karl
>>> Marx. In "German Ideology" Marx writes over and over again how
>>>
>>> "What" and "how" are dialectically connected
>>>
>>> How we "really" are
>>>
>>> (I do not have the English version - only the Swedish - so I am
>>> sure I
>>> have translated Marx wrong here -
>>>
>>> da i
>>>
>>> I recommend German Ideology
>>>
>>> Leif
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2007-01-15 kl. 05.57 skrev Mike Cole:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Catherine, Sonja et al-
>>>>
>>>> Serendipitously I was reading LSV on the problem of the environment
>>>> which is
>>>> discussed in a chapter so entitled by van der veer and valsiner
>>>> in The Vygotsky Reader. They have a long footnote about
>>>> "perezhivanie"
>>>> on
>>>> p. 354. They use the term "emotional experience" as a translation
>>>> but say it is not adequate, contrasting it with interpretation
>>>> which
>>>> they
>>>> also say is not adequate, and say that it is very like the German
>>>> term
>>>> "erleben" as Volker surmised.
>>>>
>>>> Vasiliuk who wrote a book about perezhivanie that is translated
>>>> into
>>>> English
>>>> uses Doestoevsky for most of his examples. That should cue
>>>> you to the emotional ladeness of the term! And, apropos of other
>>>> local
>>>> discussions, to the fact that separating cognition and emotion is
>>>> not indigenously Russian, and is in fact antithetical to the
>>>> Russian
>>>> lexicon, the source of lots of intercultural non-understandings.
>>>>
>>>> You can get some feel for the prefix "pere" if you think of the
>>>> word
>>>> "pere-stroika." It indexes a process of getting through some
>>>> experience, or
>>>> reliving an experience, or re-building. I am sure that some of the
>>>> Russians
>>>> who lurk in this neighborhood can help us peredumat' ( think over
>>>> again)
>>>> about this very interesting and complex semantic field.
>>>> mike
>>>>
>>>> On 1/14/07, Cathrene Connery wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Sonja and everyone,
>>>>> Thanks for your translation of perezhivanie and the corresponding
>>>>> reference. After reading Vygotsky's writings on the topic, I have
>>>>> used the
>>>>> terminology "lived experience" and felt it insufficiently
>>>>> represented
>>>>> the
>>>>> transactive dimension of the concept. "Lived-through" accounts
>>>>> for
>>>>> human
>>>>> agency as well as the dialectic between the interpersonal &
>>>>> intrapersonal
>>>>> experience. Interestingly, I have met native Russian speakers who
>>>>> were not
>>>>> familiar with the term, although it might have been reflective of
>>>>> their own
>>>>> funds of knowledge.
>>>>> Have a nice day!
>>>>> Cathrene
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
>>>>> Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education
>>>>> Central Washington University
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sonja Baumer 1/14/2007 2:30 PM >>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> hi cathrene and others,
>>>>> here is my response to your question about the translation of
>>>>> PEREZHIVANIE into english:
>>>>> in our previous work (see baumer et al, 2005) we translated
>>>>> perezhivanie as LIVED-THROUGH EXPERIENCE. the translation is
>>>>> necessarily descriptive as we could not find english word that
>>>>> would
>>>>> allow us to distinguish between PEREZHIVANIE and OPIT -- both of
>>>>> which
>>>>> are translated in english as EXPERIENCE.
>>>>> If u r a german speaker, a parallel distinction in german can
>>>>> be made
>>>>> between ERLEBNIS and ERFAHRUNG.
>>>>> i am not so fluent in german and russian, but the distinction
>>>>> seemed
>>>>> important to me, especially after reading stanislavski who also
>>>>> wrote
>>>>> about PEREZHIVANIE. let us know what your friends with more
>>>>> expertise
>>>>> in german and/or russian than myself had to say about that :-)
>>>>> sonja
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1/12/07, Cathrene Connery wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Volker and everyone:
>>>>>> Thanks for taking the time to provide us with quotes regarding
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>> dialectical nature of the ZPD from the German translation you
>>>>> referred
>>>>> to. While I am not fluent in German, I have some friends that are
>>>>> and will
>>>>> call on their expertise to help translate the text you quoted.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The issue of translation can make a huge difference in our
>>>>>>
>>>>> transaction
>>>>> with and interpretation of Vygotsky's writings. I have struggled
>>>>> especially
>>>>> with the concept of perezhivanie / perezhivanija. Would anyone
>>>>> like
>>>>> to take
>>>>> a stab at this one?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Gratefully,
>>>>>> Cathrene
>>>>>>
>>>>>> M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education
>>>>>> Central Washington University
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Volker.hippie" 1/11/2007 2:44 AM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Cathrine, in "Denken und Sprechen", translated by
>>>>>> Lompscher and
>>>>>> Rückriem, I felt in love with the term, on page 253: "Aus dieser
>>>>>> specifischen Zusammenarbeit zwischen Kind und Erwachsenem,
>>>>>> die ...
>>>>>>
>>>>> das
>>>>>
>>>>>> zentrale Moment im Bildungsproces darstellt, erklärt sich die
>>>>>> frühe
>>>>>> Reifung wissenschaftlicher Begriffe sowie der Umstand, dass ihr
>>>>>> Entwicklungsniveau als *Zone der nächsten Möglichkeiten (Zone for
>>>>>>
>>>>> next
>>>>>
>>>>>> possibilities) *hinsichtlich der Alltagsbegriffe wirkt, indem er
>>>>>>
>>>>> ihnen
>>>>>
>>>>>> als eine Art Propädeutik den Weg bahnt".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Page 32: Um nachzuahmen, muss ich die Möglichkeit haben, von dem,
>>>>>>
>>>>> was
>>>>>
>>>>>> ich kann, zu dem überzugehen, was ich nicht kann.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would like to give you some more quotes, but first I have to
>>>>>> ask,
>>>>>>
>>>>> -
>>>>>
>>>>>> are you able to read German? In a way it would not make
>>>>>> meaning to
>>>>>> translate fx the term "Bildungsproces", because as I know they do
>>>>>>
>>>>> not
>>>>>
>>>>>> have a word for it, in English. "Bildung" is another one, of this
>>>>>>
>>>>> funny
>>>>>
>>>>>> words, where Bildung means to get educated, not only as we
>>>>>>
>>>>> understand to
>>>>>
>>>>>> learning, but, too, as socializing to a democratic human
>>>>>> member of
>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> world community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You could find the same passages in the translation by Kozulin,
>>>>>>
>>>>> 1986, or
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sevé, 1997, but for me , Lompscher/Rückriem (with the
>>>>>> assistance of
>>>>>> Elena Kravtsova, Ghita Vygodskaya) have been able to translate
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>> words
>>>>>
>>>>>> by Vygotsky in a way, as they express in the start of the book,
>>>>>>
>>>>> closest
>>>>>
>>>>>> to the Russian original text. - I don't know if that is the
>>>>>>
>>>>> "really" the
>>>>>
>>>>>> case, ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Volker
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cathrene Connery skrev:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Volker,
>>>>>>> Thanks for the interesting comments. Is it possible to select a
>>>>>>>
>>>>> quote
>>>>> / selection regarding the ZPD from the text you mentioned and
>>>>> post it
>>>>> for
>>>>> the list serve?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Feliz dia (Have a happy day),
>>>>>>> Cathrene
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
>>>>>>> Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education
>>>>>>> Central Washington University
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Volker.hippie" 1/10/2007 8:59 AM
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, and the ZPD reminds me of the term Gibson used to describe
>>>>>>> perception in a way, which made it possible to bridge between
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> objective and subjective perception, which he named
>>>>>>>
>>>>> "/affordances/".
>>>>>
>>>>>>> and I agree with Armando, the ZPD is something between the
>>>>>>>
>>>>> individual
>>>>>
>>>>>>> and the other(s) - and it gets facilitated by common joint
>>>>>>>
>>>>> activities.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that does not mean, that I can not take what I learn in a
>>>>>>> ZPD
>>>>>>>
>>>>> with
>>>>>
>>>>>>> me, to others places, other and maybe even more developmental
>>>>>>>
>>>>> ZPD's.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just a thought, - that the real fantastic principles in
>>>>>>>
>>>>> psychology are
>>>>>
>>>>>>> not either/or individual/collective principles, but both, at the
>>>>>>>
>>>>> same
>>>>>
>>>>>>> time, in a dialectical way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is therefore so wonderful to read Vygotsky - ´cause nobody
>>>>>>>
>>>>> has,
>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMHO, come up with a clearer description of the ZPD than made by
>>>>>>> Vygotsky in Denken und Sprechen, 2002, which is the
>>>>>>> translation by
>>>>>>> Lompscher et al. .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Volker
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Armando Perez skrev:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Eric: I dont like to look at ZPD as individual but as
>>>>>>>> a colective interperson al situation. This means that
>>>>>>>> ZPD do not belong to an individual but it is
>>>>>>>> constructed or co-constructed. I also work in
>>>>>>>> educational aplication of Vygotsky and I am tried to
>>>>>>>> unified the concept od ZPD and Social Situation odf
>>>>>>>> Development. What do you think about that
>>>>>>>> Armando
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>>>>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>>>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com <http://mail.yahoo.com/>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xmca mailing list
>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>
>>>
>>> Send instant messages to your online friends http:// <http:///>
>>> uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xmca mailing list
>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> //
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --
>> /Ana Marjanovic-Shane, Ph.D./
>> /151 W. Tulpehocken St./
>>
>> /Philadelphia//, PA 19144///
>>
>> /(h) 215-843-2909/
>>
>> /ana@zmajcenter.org <mailto:ana@zmajcenter.org>/
>>
>> /http://www.speakeasy.org/~anamshane
>> <http://www.speakeasy.org/%7Eanamshane>/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>
>>
>> <winmail.dat>
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
> <winmail.dat>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Thu Feb 01 2007 - 10:11:32 PST