I wonder if the native German speakers can give us insight into the
use of the prefix "er" as in er-leben, er-fahren, er-innern and so
on. It would help us figure out how German constructs get into
Russian and then become "latinzed" in English via "ex"-perience
Catalina
On Jan 14, 2007, at 11:57 PM, Mike Cole wrote:
> Catherine, Sonja et al-
>
> Serendipitously I was reading LSV on the problem of the environment
> which is
> discussed in a chapter so entitled by van der veer and valsiner
> in The Vygotsky Reader. They have a long footnote about
> "perezhivanie" on
> p. 354. They use the term "emotional experience" as a translation
> but say it is not adequate, contrasting it with interpretation
> which they
> also say is not adequate, and say that it is very like the German term
> "erleben" as Volker surmised.
>
> Vasiliuk who wrote a book about perezhivanie that is translated
> into English
> uses Doestoevsky for most of his examples. That should cue
> you to the emotional ladeness of the term! And, apropos of other local
> discussions, to the fact that separating cognition and emotion is
> not indigenously Russian, and is in fact antithetical to the Russian
> lexicon, the source of lots of intercultural non-understandings.
>
> You can get some feel for the prefix "pere" if you think of the word
> "pere-stroika." It indexes a process of getting through some
> experience, or
> reliving an experience, or re-building. I am sure that some of the
> Russians
> who lurk in this neighborhood can help us peredumat' ( think over
> again)
> about this very interesting and complex semantic field.
> mike
>
> On 1/14/07, Cathrene Connery <ConneryC@cwu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sonja and everyone,
>> Thanks for your translation of perezhivanie and the corresponding
>> reference. After reading Vygotsky's writings on the topic, I have
>> used the
>> terminology "lived experience" and felt it insufficiently
>> represented the
>> transactive dimension of the concept. "Lived-through" accounts
>> for human
>> agency as well as the dialectic between the interpersonal &
>> intrapersonal
>> experience. Interestingly, I have met native Russian speakers who
>> were not
>> familiar with the term, although it might have been reflective of
>> their own
>> funds of knowledge.
>> Have a nice day!
>> Cathrene
>>
>>
>> M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education
>> Central Washington University
>>
>> >>> Sonja Baumer <sbaumer@gmail.com> 1/14/2007 2:30 PM >>>
>> hi cathrene and others,
>> here is my response to your question about the translation of
>> PEREZHIVANIE into english:
>> in our previous work (see baumer et al, 2005) we translated
>> perezhivanie as LIVED-THROUGH EXPERIENCE. the translation is
>> necessarily descriptive as we could not find english word that would
>> allow us to distinguish between PEREZHIVANIE and OPIT -- both of
>> which
>> are translated in english as EXPERIENCE.
>> If u r a german speaker, a parallel distinction in german can be
>> made
>> between ERLEBNIS and ERFAHRUNG.
>> i am not so fluent in german and russian, but the distinction seemed
>> important to me, especially after reading stanislavski who also
>> wrote
>> about PEREZHIVANIE. let us know what your friends with more
>> expertise
>> in german and/or russian than myself had to say about that :-)
>> sonja
>>
>> On 1/12/07, Cathrene Connery <ConneryC@cwu.edu> wrote:
>> > Hi Volker and everyone:
>> > Thanks for taking the time to provide us with quotes regarding the
>> dialectical nature of the ZPD from the German translation you
>> referred
>> to. While I am not fluent in German, I have some friends that are
>> and will
>> call on their expertise to help translate the text you quoted.
>> >
>> > The issue of translation can make a huge difference in our
>> transaction
>> with and interpretation of Vygotsky's writings. I have struggled
>> especially
>> with the concept of perezhivanie / perezhivanija. Would anyone
>> like to take
>> a stab at this one?
>> >
>> > Gratefully,
>> > Cathrene
>> >
>> > M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
>> > Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education
>> > Central Washington University
>> >
>> > >>> "Volker.hippie" <Volker.hippie@tele2adsl.dk> 1/11/2007 2:44
>> AM >>>
>> > Dear Cathrine, in "Denken und Sprechen", translated by Lompscher
>> and
>> > Rückriem, I felt in love with the term, on page 253: "Aus dieser
>> > specifischen Zusammenarbeit zwischen Kind und Erwachsenem,
>> die ... das
>> > zentrale Moment im Bildungsproces darstellt, erklärt sich die frühe
>> > Reifung wissenschaftlicher Begriffe sowie der Umstand, dass ihr
>> > Entwicklungsniveau als *Zone der nächsten Möglichkeiten (Zone
>> for next
>> > possibilities) *hinsichtlich der Alltagsbegriffe wirkt, indem er
>> ihnen
>> > als eine Art Propädeutik den Weg bahnt".
>> >
>> > Page 32: Um nachzuahmen, muss ich die Möglichkeit haben, von
>> dem, was
>> > ich kann, zu dem überzugehen, was ich nicht kann.
>> >
>> > I would like to give you some more quotes, but first I have to
>> ask, -
>> > are you able to read German? In a way it would not make meaning to
>> > translate fx the term "Bildungsproces", because as I know they
>> do not
>> > have a word for it, in English. "Bildung" is another one, of
>> this funny
>> > words, where Bildung means to get educated, not only as we
>> understand to
>> > learning, but, too, as socializing to a democratic human member
>> of the
>> > world community.
>> >
>> > You could find the same passages in the translation by Kozulin,
>> 1986, or
>> > Sevé, 1997, but for me , Lompscher/Rückriem (with the assistance of
>> > Elena Kravtsova, Ghita Vygodskaya) have been able to translate
>> the words
>> > by Vygotsky in a way, as they express in the start of the book,
>> closest
>> > to the Russian original text. - I don't know if that is the
>> "really" the
>> > case, ...
>> >
>> > Volker
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Cathrene Connery skrev:
>> > > Hi Volker,
>> > > Thanks for the interesting comments. Is it possible to select
>> a quote
>> / selection regarding the ZPD from the text you mentioned and post
>> it for
>> the list serve?
>> > > Feliz dia (Have a happy day),
>> > > Cathrene
>> > >
>> > > M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
>> > > Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education
>> > > Central Washington University
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>>> "Volker.hippie" <Volker.hippie@tele2adsl.dk> 1/10/2007 8:59
>> AM >>>
>> > >>>>
>> > > Yes, and the ZPD reminds me of the term Gibson used to describe
>> > > perception in a way, which made it possible to bridge between the
>> > > objective and subjective perception, which he named "/
>> affordances/".
>> > >
>> > > and I agree with Armando, the ZPD is something between the
>> individual
>> > > and the other(s) - and it gets facilitated by common joint
>> activities.
>> > >
>> > > But that does not mean, that I can not take what I learn in a
>> ZPD with
>> > > me, to others places, other and maybe even more developmental
>> ZPD's.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Just a thought, - that the real fantastic principles in
>> psychology are
>> > > not either/or individual/collective principles, but both, at
>> the same
>> > > time, in a dialectical way.
>> > >
>> > > It is therefore so wonderful to read Vygotsky - ´cause nobody
>> has,
>> > > IMHO, come up with a clearer description of the ZPD than made by
>> > > Vygotsky in Denken und Sprechen, 2002, which is the
>> translation by
>> > > Lompscher et al. .
>> > >
>> > > Volker
>> > >
>> > > Armando Perez skrev:
>> > >
>> > >> Eric: I dont like to look at ZPD as individual but as
>> > >> a colective interperson al situation. This means that
>> > >> ZPD do not belong to an individual but it is
>> > >> constructed or co-constructed. I also work in
>> > >> educational aplication of Vygotsky and I am tried to
>> > >> unified the concept od ZPD and Social Situation odf
>> > >> Development. What do you think about that
>> > >> Armando
>> > >>
>> > >>
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