Dear friends,
I think that Romanic languages could also help in handling the Russian concept:
PEREZHIVANIE and OPIT (Russian)
ERLEBNIS and ERFAHRUNG (German)
VIVENCIA and EXPERIENCIA (Portuguese/Spanish)
Regards
Silvio
Leif Strandberg <leifstrandberg.ab@telia.com> wrote: Hi
I am not at Russian speaker (or reader)
Da i
to me the word-meaning of perezhivania sounds and look very much Karl
Marx. In "German Ideology" Marx writes over and over again how
"What" and "how" are dialectically connected
How we "really" are
(I do not have the English version - only the Swedish - so I am sure I
have translated Marx wrong here -
da i
I recommend German Ideology
Leif
2007-01-15 kl. 05.57 skrev Mike Cole:
> Catherine, Sonja et al-
>
> Serendipitously I was reading LSV on the problem of the environment
> which is
> discussed in a chapter so entitled by van der veer and valsiner
> in The Vygotsky Reader. They have a long footnote about "perezhivanie"
> on
> p. 354. They use the term "emotional experience" as a translation
> but say it is not adequate, contrasting it with interpretation which
> they
> also say is not adequate, and say that it is very like the German term
> "erleben" as Volker surmised.
>
> Vasiliuk who wrote a book about perezhivanie that is translated into
> English
> uses Doestoevsky for most of his examples. That should cue
> you to the emotional ladeness of the term! And, apropos of other local
> discussions, to the fact that separating cognition and emotion is
> not indigenously Russian, and is in fact antithetical to the Russian
> lexicon, the source of lots of intercultural non-understandings.
>
> You can get some feel for the prefix "pere" if you think of the word
> "pere-stroika." It indexes a process of getting through some
> experience, or
> reliving an experience, or re-building. I am sure that some of the
> Russians
> who lurk in this neighborhood can help us peredumat' ( think over
> again)
> about this very interesting and complex semantic field.
> mike
>
> On 1/14/07, Cathrene Connery wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sonja and everyone,
>> Thanks for your translation of perezhivanie and the corresponding
>> reference. After reading Vygotsky's writings on the topic, I have
>> used the
>> terminology "lived experience" and felt it insufficiently represented
>> the
>> transactive dimension of the concept. "Lived-through" accounts for
>> human
>> agency as well as the dialectic between the interpersonal &
>> intrapersonal
>> experience. Interestingly, I have met native Russian speakers who
>> were not
>> familiar with the term, although it might have been reflective of
>> their own
>> funds of knowledge.
>> Have a nice day!
>> Cathrene
>>
>>
>> M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education
>> Central Washington University
>>
>> >>> Sonja Baumer 1/14/2007 2:30 PM >>>
>> hi cathrene and others,
>> here is my response to your question about the translation of
>> PEREZHIVANIE into english:
>> in our previous work (see baumer et al, 2005) we translated
>> perezhivanie as LIVED-THROUGH EXPERIENCE. the translation is
>> necessarily descriptive as we could not find english word that would
>> allow us to distinguish between PEREZHIVANIE and OPIT -- both of which
>> are translated in english as EXPERIENCE.
>> If u r a german speaker, a parallel distinction in german can be made
>> between ERLEBNIS and ERFAHRUNG.
>> i am not so fluent in german and russian, but the distinction seemed
>> important to me, especially after reading stanislavski who also wrote
>> about PEREZHIVANIE. let us know what your friends with more expertise
>> in german and/or russian than myself had to say about that :-)
>> sonja
>>
>> On 1/12/07, Cathrene Connery wrote:
>> > Hi Volker and everyone:
>> > Thanks for taking the time to provide us with quotes regarding the
>> dialectical nature of the ZPD from the German translation you referred
>> to. While I am not fluent in German, I have some friends that are
>> and will
>> call on their expertise to help translate the text you quoted.
>> >
>> > The issue of translation can make a huge difference in our
>> transaction
>> with and interpretation of Vygotsky's writings. I have struggled
>> especially
>> with the concept of perezhivanie / perezhivanija. Would anyone like
>> to take
>> a stab at this one?
>> >
>> > Gratefully,
>> > Cathrene
>> >
>> > M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
>> > Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education
>> > Central Washington University
>> >
>> > >>> "Volker.hippie" 1/11/2007 2:44 AM
>> >>>
>> > Dear Cathrine, in "Denken und Sprechen", translated by Lompscher and
>> > Rückriem, I felt in love with the term, on page 253: "Aus dieser
>> > specifischen Zusammenarbeit zwischen Kind und Erwachsenem, die ...
>> das
>> > zentrale Moment im Bildungsproces darstellt, erklärt sich die frühe
>> > Reifung wissenschaftlicher Begriffe sowie der Umstand, dass ihr
>> > Entwicklungsniveau als *Zone der nächsten Möglichkeiten (Zone for
>> next
>> > possibilities) *hinsichtlich der Alltagsbegriffe wirkt, indem er
>> ihnen
>> > als eine Art Propädeutik den Weg bahnt".
>> >
>> > Page 32: Um nachzuahmen, muss ich die Möglichkeit haben, von dem,
>> was
>> > ich kann, zu dem überzugehen, was ich nicht kann.
>> >
>> > I would like to give you some more quotes, but first I have to ask,
>> -
>> > are you able to read German? In a way it would not make meaning to
>> > translate fx the term "Bildungsproces", because as I know they do
>> not
>> > have a word for it, in English. "Bildung" is another one, of this
>> funny
>> > words, where Bildung means to get educated, not only as we
>> understand to
>> > learning, but, too, as socializing to a democratic human member of
>> the
>> > world community.
>> >
>> > You could find the same passages in the translation by Kozulin,
>> 1986, or
>> > Sevé, 1997, but for me , Lompscher/Rückriem (with the assistance of
>> > Elena Kravtsova, Ghita Vygodskaya) have been able to translate the
>> words
>> > by Vygotsky in a way, as they express in the start of the book,
>> closest
>> > to the Russian original text. - I don't know if that is the
>> "really" the
>> > case, ...
>> >
>> > Volker
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Cathrene Connery skrev:
>> > > Hi Volker,
>> > > Thanks for the interesting comments. Is it possible to select a
>> quote
>> / selection regarding the ZPD from the text you mentioned and post it
>> for
>> the list serve?
>> > > Feliz dia (Have a happy day),
>> > > Cathrene
>> > >
>> > > M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
>> > > Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education
>> > > Central Washington University
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>>> "Volker.hippie" 1/10/2007 8:59 AM
>> >>>
>> > >>>>
>> > > Yes, and the ZPD reminds me of the term Gibson used to describe
>> > > perception in a way, which made it possible to bridge between the
>> > > objective and subjective perception, which he named
>> "/affordances/".
>> > >
>> > > and I agree with Armando, the ZPD is something between the
>> individual
>> > > and the other(s) - and it gets facilitated by common joint
>> activities.
>> > >
>> > > But that does not mean, that I can not take what I learn in a ZPD
>> with
>> > > me, to others places, other and maybe even more developmental
>> ZPD's.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Just a thought, - that the real fantastic principles in
>> psychology are
>> > > not either/or individual/collective principles, but both, at the
>> same
>> > > time, in a dialectical way.
>> > >
>> > > It is therefore so wonderful to read Vygotsky - ´cause nobody
>> has,
>> > > IMHO, come up with a clearer description of the ZPD than made by
>> > > Vygotsky in Denken und Sprechen, 2002, which is the translation by
>> > > Lompscher et al. .
>> > >
>> > > Volker
>> > >
>> > > Armando Perez skrev:
>> > >
>> > >> Eric: I dont like to look at ZPD as individual but as
>> > >> a colective interperson al situation. This means that
>> > >> ZPD do not belong to an individual but it is
>> > >> constructed or co-constructed. I also work in
>> > >> educational aplication of Vygotsky and I am tried to
>> > >> unified the concept od ZPD and Social Situation odf
>> > >> Development. What do you think about that
>> > >> Armando
>> > >>
>> > >>
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