Mike, what I meant was only connected to the thoughts about taking
picture/film, not the topic of local, microgenetic zopeds in general.
yes, and here we actually do not really know what Seth would say to the
taking picture/film talk, though you mentioned his statement about being
able to observe developmental change, as an argument that is will be
difficult to document zopeds by media. Therefore I assumed, that you
assumed, that you and Seth would agree about the picture issue. - I am
sorry, if this was a too fast conclusion. :-)
Fascinating Rembrandt picture, where I think I can "see" what you mean.
Have to reread Seth's article, before I can say more, about the topic in
general.
Volker
Mike Cole skrev:
> I certainly believe in local, microgenetic zopeds, Volker. So far as I
> can
> tell from Seth's article that is in the papers for discussion on xmca, he
> and I do not agree on this point, but perhaps I misread.
>
> Great picture. When you get a chance look this Rembrandt picture that Peg
> Griffin brought to our
> attention in an earlier discussion of this always fascinating, central
> topic
>
> http://img6.photobucket.com/albums/v19/commonbeauty/Rembrandt-walk-h.gif
>
> mike
>
> On 1/12/07, Volker.hippie <Volker.hippie@tele2adsl.dk> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Mike, - I think you ( and Seth Chaiklin) are right, it would only
>> be possible in a LOCAL version, - yes, and sometimes artists, musicians,
>> painters can move across this boarder - and still, the phenomenological
>> experience of it, a ZPD on film or picture, still only would last for a
>> short moment.
>>
>> If a short moment can make great impact, as Daniel Stern talks about in
>> his newest book, is another topic?
>>
>> For now I want to show you all a picture, made by a photograph, Marc
>> Schneider, in a refugee camp somewhere in Serbia, where the NGO "Hi
>> Neighbour" tries to create hope with the jelp of by Vygotsky inspired
>> plays and activities.
>>
>> ZPD
>>
>> The first, and second, and ... time I saw this picture I thought, or
>> better I felt, - yes, he made it, a picture of a prototypical ZPD
>> situation. - But, can you see what I see, or do I see what I see,
>> because I have visited Serbia and the workshops of "Hi Neighour". - But
>> that would be nearly the same than to ask, is this art. - Anyway, I hope
>> you can "catch" the picture.
>> ...
>>
>> You like "possibilties", the expression I have not seen before, in
>> "Thinking and Speaking".
>> But I would like you to say more about: But is multiplicity what
>> everyone has in
>> mind? I do not think so. This related directly
>> to the issue of horizontal and vertical "dimensions" of development.
>>
>> Volker
>>
>> Mike Cole skrev:
>> > Volker-- I believe you can take video recordings of a zoped. However,
>> > ideal
>> > it should be more than one event since the relative change in
>> > responsibility
>> > for carrying out some task that is the immediate environment for the
>> > change
>> > one is looking for may require that. There are some reasonbly good
>> > descriptions of zopeds around IF and only IF the idea that when one
>> > observes
>> > developmental (qualitative ) change in interactions and shifts in
>> > responsibility etc it applies to a LOCAL social situation of
>> > developkent. As
>> > I read Chaiklin, and sometimes (not always) LSV, developmental change
>> > can
>> > only count as such if it is to be seen across the board in all
>> settings.
>> > This is impression from Leontiev
>> > in his book on development as well. IF that is the interpretation,
>> > then no.
>> > One would need a feature length film to gather evidence.
>> >
>> > I also like the idea of the word possiblities rather than proximal
>> > because
>> > of the implication of multiplicity. But is multiplicity what everyone
>> > has in
>> > mind? I do not think so. This related directly
>> > to the issue of horizontal and vertical "dimensions" of development.
>> > mike
>> >
>> > On 1/12/07, Volker.hippie <Volker.hippie@tele2adsl.dk> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dear Catalina, you are right. The term "nächsten" in German can be
>> >> translated with next, but if we follow the root of the word, you are
>> >> right, that would be "in der Nähe", that is nearby, proximal.
>> >>
>> >> What was new for me, to read by Vygotsky, is the combination of
>> the two
>> >> words, /nächsten Möglichkeiten/, that is in English the Zone of
>> >> proximal, or better, nearby *possibilities*.
>> >>
>> >> For me the word possibilities (plural) seems almost postmodern in
>> >> contrast to the word development.
>> >>
>> >> Nobody would know beforehand all the possibilities which are
>> possible,
>> >> though Vygotsky some pages earlier makes the statement that the range
>> of
>> >> possibilities (development) is somehow depended by the individual and
>> >> the socio-cultural activities/signs which are in play. As Elena
>> >> Kravtsova said in her speech in Moscow, at the 7th International
>> >> Vygotsky Memorial Conference, in November 2006, /Vygotsky could in
>> one
>> >> way be (nearly) a biologist, pointing at the ground all human beings
>> >> have in common /(our nature history, which Leontjev explained so
>> nicely
>> >> from the early beginnings of re-action and life), /and in the same
>> time
>> >> be a constructivist, where there always are possibilities for more
>> >> possibilities, especially in the arts and the humanities./
>> >>
>> >> At the conference several speakers said, that Vygotsky was /in love
>> with
>> >> the crisis of psychology./
>> >>
>> >> And it could be, that I am in love with principles which invite both,
>> or
>> >> even several "language-games" to create Zones of nearby
>> possibilities.
>> >>
>> >> Thank you for your reply, and correction, - next would actually be
>> not
>> >> the right term.
>> >>
>> >> Volker
>> >>
>> >> PS. Can you take photos of a ZPD?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Catalina Laserna skrev:
>> >> > Thank you for the the reference to the German translation of
>> "Speech
>> >> > and Thought" -- I will try to get a copy. Although my German is
>> >> > rusty, I am very aware of how much is lost in translation, for
>> >> > example, certain passages of Heideggar make little sense in the
>> >> English.
>> >> >
>> >> > Anyway, I was thinking: would "nächsten" not also connote
>> "nearby"?
>> >> > The implication of this nuanced difference in wording is that
>> >> > development would have an opportunistic aspect to it.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Best,
>> >> >
>> >> > Catalina
>> >> >
>> >> > On Jan 11, 2007, at 5:44 AM, Volker.hippie wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Dear Cathrine, in "Denken und Sprechen", translated by
>> Lompscher and
>> >> >> Rückriem, I felt in love with the term, on page 253: "Aus dieser
>> >> >> specifischen Zusammenarbeit zwischen Kind und Erwachsenem, die ...
>> >> >> das zentrale Moment im Bildungsproces darstellt, erklärt sich die
>> >> >> frühe Reifung wissenschaftlicher Begriffe sowie der Umstand, dass
>> ihr
>> >> >> Entwicklungsniveau als *Zone der nächsten Möglichkeiten (Zone for
>> >> >> next possibilities) *hinsichtlich der Alltagsbegriffe wirkt, indem
>> er
>> >> >> ihnen als eine Art Propädeutik den Weg bahnt".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Page 32: Um nachzuahmen, muss ich die Möglichkeit haben, von dem,
>> was
>> >> >> ich kann, zu dem überzugehen, was ich nicht kann.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I would like to give you some more quotes, but first I have to
>> ask,
>> -
>> >> >> are you able to read German? In a way it would not make meaning to
>> >> >> translate fx the term "Bildungsproces", because as I know they do
>> not
>> >> >> have a word for it, in English. "Bildung" is another one, of this
>> >> >> funny words, where Bildung means to get educated, not only as we
>> >> >> understand to learning, but, too, as socializing to a democratic
>> >> >> human member of the world community.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You could find the same passages in the translation by Kozulin,
>> 1986,
>> >> >> or Sevé, 1997, but for me , Lompscher/Rückriem (with the
>> assistance
>> >> >> of Elena Kravtsova, Ghita Vygodskaya) have been able to translate
>> the
>> >> >> words by Vygotsky in a way, as they express in the start of the
>> book,
>> >> >> closest to the Russian original text. - I don't know if that is
>> the
>> >> >> "really" the case, ...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Volker
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Cathrene Connery skrev:
>> >> >>> Hi Volker,
>> >> >>> Thanks for the interesting comments. Is it possible to select a
>> >> >>> quote / selection regarding the ZPD from the text you
>> mentioned and
>> >> >>> post it for the list serve? Feliz dia (Have a happy day),
>> >> >>> Cathrene
>> >> >>> M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
>> >> >>> Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education Central
>> Washington
>> >> >>> University
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>>> "Volker.hippie" <Volker.hippie@tele2adsl.dk> 1/10/2007 8:59 AM
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>> Yes, and the ZPD reminds me of the term Gibson used to describe
>> >> >>> perception in a way, which made it possible to bridge between the
>> >> >>> objective and subjective perception, which he named
>> "/affordances/".
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> and I agree with Armando, the ZPD is something between the
>> >> >>> individual and the other(s) - and it gets facilitated by common
>> >> >>> joint activities.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> But that does not mean, that I can not take what I learn in a ZPD
>> >> >>> with me, to others places, other and maybe even more
>> developmental
>> >> >>> ZPD's.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Just a thought, - that the real fantastic principles in
>> psychology
>> >> >>> are not either/or individual/collective principles, but both, at
>> the
>> >> >>> same time, in a dialectical way.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> It is therefore so wonderful to read Vygotsky - ´cause nobody
>> has,
>> >> >>> IMHO, come up with a clearer description of the ZPD than made by
>> >> >>> Vygotsky in Denken und Sprechen, 2002, which is the
>> translation by
>> >> >>> Lompscher et al. .
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Volker
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Armando Perez skrev:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> Eric: I dont like to look at ZPD as individual but as
>> >> >>>> a colective interperson al situation. This means that
>> >> >>>> ZPD do not belong to an individual but it is
>> >> >>>> constructed or co-constructed. I also work in
>> >> >>>> educational aplication of Vygotsky and I am tried to
>> >> >>>> unified the concept od ZPD and Social Situation odf
>> >> >>>> Development. What do you think about that
>> >> >>>> Armando
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> __________________________________________________
>> >> >>>> Do You Yahoo!?
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>> >> >>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
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