I certainly believe in local, microgenetic zopeds, Volker. So far as I can
tell from Seth's article that is in the papers for discussion on xmca, he
and I do not agree on this point, but perhaps I misread.
Great picture. When you get a chance look this Rembrandt picture that Peg
Griffin brought to our
attention in an earlier discussion of this always fascinating, central topic
http://img6.photobucket.com/albums/v19/commonbeauty/Rembrandt-walk-h.gif
mike
On 1/12/07, Volker.hippie <Volker.hippie@tele2adsl.dk> wrote:
>
> Dear Mike, - I think you ( and Seth Chaiklin) are right, it would only
> be possible in a LOCAL version, - yes, and sometimes artists, musicians,
> painters can move across this boarder - and still, the phenomenological
> experience of it, a ZPD on film or picture, still only would last for a
> short moment.
>
> If a short moment can make great impact, as Daniel Stern talks about in
> his newest book, is another topic?
>
> For now I want to show you all a picture, made by a photograph, Marc
> Schneider, in a refugee camp somewhere in Serbia, where the NGO "Hi
> Neighbour" tries to create hope with the jelp of by Vygotsky inspired
> plays and activities.
>
> ZPD
>
> The first, and second, and ... time I saw this picture I thought, or
> better I felt, - yes, he made it, a picture of a prototypical ZPD
> situation. - But, can you see what I see, or do I see what I see,
> because I have visited Serbia and the workshops of "Hi Neighour". - But
> that would be nearly the same than to ask, is this art. - Anyway, I hope
> you can "catch" the picture.
> ...
>
> You like "possibilties", the expression I have not seen before, in
> "Thinking and Speaking".
> But I would like you to say more about: But is multiplicity what
> everyone has in
> mind? I do not think so. This related directly
> to the issue of horizontal and vertical "dimensions" of development.
>
> Volker
>
> Mike Cole skrev:
> > Volker-- I believe you can take video recordings of a zoped. However,
> > ideal
> > it should be more than one event since the relative change in
> > responsibility
> > for carrying out some task that is the immediate environment for the
> > change
> > one is looking for may require that. There are some reasonbly good
> > descriptions of zopeds around IF and only IF the idea that when one
> > observes
> > developmental (qualitative ) change in interactions and shifts in
> > responsibility etc it applies to a LOCAL social situation of
> > developkent. As
> > I read Chaiklin, and sometimes (not always) LSV, developmental change
> > can
> > only count as such if it is to be seen across the board in all settings.
> > This is impression from Leontiev
> > in his book on development as well. IF that is the interpretation,
> > then no.
> > One would need a feature length film to gather evidence.
> >
> > I also like the idea of the word possiblities rather than proximal
> > because
> > of the implication of multiplicity. But is multiplicity what everyone
> > has in
> > mind? I do not think so. This related directly
> > to the issue of horizontal and vertical "dimensions" of development.
> > mike
> >
> > On 1/12/07, Volker.hippie <Volker.hippie@tele2adsl.dk> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear Catalina, you are right. The term "nächsten" in German can be
> >> translated with next, but if we follow the root of the word, you are
> >> right, that would be "in der Nähe", that is nearby, proximal.
> >>
> >> What was new for me, to read by Vygotsky, is the combination of the two
> >> words, /nächsten Möglichkeiten/, that is in English the Zone of
> >> proximal, or better, nearby *possibilities*.
> >>
> >> For me the word possibilities (plural) seems almost postmodern in
> >> contrast to the word development.
> >>
> >> Nobody would know beforehand all the possibilities which are possible,
> >> though Vygotsky some pages earlier makes the statement that the range
> of
> >> possibilities (development) is somehow depended by the individual and
> >> the socio-cultural activities/signs which are in play. As Elena
> >> Kravtsova said in her speech in Moscow, at the 7th International
> >> Vygotsky Memorial Conference, in November 2006, /Vygotsky could in one
> >> way be (nearly) a biologist, pointing at the ground all human beings
> >> have in common /(our nature history, which Leontjev explained so nicely
> >> from the early beginnings of re-action and life), /and in the same time
> >> be a constructivist, where there always are possibilities for more
> >> possibilities, especially in the arts and the humanities./
> >>
> >> At the conference several speakers said, that Vygotsky was /in love
> with
> >> the crisis of psychology./
> >>
> >> And it could be, that I am in love with principles which invite both,
> or
> >> even several "language-games" to create Zones of nearby possibilities.
> >>
> >> Thank you for your reply, and correction, - next would actually be not
> >> the right term.
> >>
> >> Volker
> >>
> >> PS. Can you take photos of a ZPD?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Catalina Laserna skrev:
> >> > Thank you for the the reference to the German translation of "Speech
> >> > and Thought" -- I will try to get a copy. Although my German is
> >> > rusty, I am very aware of how much is lost in translation, for
> >> > example, certain passages of Heideggar make little sense in the
> >> English.
> >> >
> >> > Anyway, I was thinking: would "nächsten" not also connote "nearby"?
> >> > The implication of this nuanced difference in wording is that
> >> > development would have an opportunistic aspect to it.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Best,
> >> >
> >> > Catalina
> >> >
> >> > On Jan 11, 2007, at 5:44 AM, Volker.hippie wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Dear Cathrine, in "Denken und Sprechen", translated by Lompscher and
> >> >> Rückriem, I felt in love with the term, on page 253: "Aus dieser
> >> >> specifischen Zusammenarbeit zwischen Kind und Erwachsenem, die ...
> >> >> das zentrale Moment im Bildungsproces darstellt, erklärt sich die
> >> >> frühe Reifung wissenschaftlicher Begriffe sowie der Umstand, dass
> ihr
> >> >> Entwicklungsniveau als *Zone der nächsten Möglichkeiten (Zone for
> >> >> next possibilities) *hinsichtlich der Alltagsbegriffe wirkt, indem
> er
> >> >> ihnen als eine Art Propädeutik den Weg bahnt".
> >> >>
> >> >> Page 32: Um nachzuahmen, muss ich die Möglichkeit haben, von dem,
> was
> >> >> ich kann, zu dem überzugehen, was ich nicht kann.
> >> >>
> >> >> I would like to give you some more quotes, but first I have to ask,
> -
> >> >> are you able to read German? In a way it would not make meaning to
> >> >> translate fx the term "Bildungsproces", because as I know they do
> not
> >> >> have a word for it, in English. "Bildung" is another one, of this
> >> >> funny words, where Bildung means to get educated, not only as we
> >> >> understand to learning, but, too, as socializing to a democratic
> >> >> human member of the world community.
> >> >>
> >> >> You could find the same passages in the translation by Kozulin,
> 1986,
> >> >> or Sevé, 1997, but for me , Lompscher/Rückriem (with the assistance
> >> >> of Elena Kravtsova, Ghita Vygodskaya) have been able to translate
> the
> >> >> words by Vygotsky in a way, as they express in the start of the
> book,
> >> >> closest to the Russian original text. - I don't know if that is the
> >> >> "really" the case, ...
> >> >>
> >> >> Volker
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Cathrene Connery skrev:
> >> >>> Hi Volker,
> >> >>> Thanks for the interesting comments. Is it possible to select a
> >> >>> quote / selection regarding the ZPD from the text you mentioned and
> >> >>> post it for the list serve? Feliz dia (Have a happy day),
> >> >>> Cathrene
> >> >>> M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
> >> >>> Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education Central
> Washington
> >> >>> University
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>>> "Volker.hippie" <Volker.hippie@tele2adsl.dk> 1/10/2007 8:59 AM
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>> Yes, and the ZPD reminds me of the term Gibson used to describe
> >> >>> perception in a way, which made it possible to bridge between the
> >> >>> objective and subjective perception, which he named
> "/affordances/".
> >> >>>
> >> >>> and I agree with Armando, the ZPD is something between the
> >> >>> individual and the other(s) - and it gets facilitated by common
> >> >>> joint activities.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> But that does not mean, that I can not take what I learn in a ZPD
> >> >>> with me, to others places, other and maybe even more developmental
> >> >>> ZPD's.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Just a thought, - that the real fantastic principles in psychology
> >> >>> are not either/or individual/collective principles, but both, at
> the
> >> >>> same time, in a dialectical way.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> It is therefore so wonderful to read Vygotsky - ´cause nobody has,
> >> >>> IMHO, come up with a clearer description of the ZPD than made by
> >> >>> Vygotsky in Denken und Sprechen, 2002, which is the translation by
> >> >>> Lompscher et al. .
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Volker
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Armando Perez skrev:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Eric: I dont like to look at ZPD as individual but as
> >> >>>> a colective interperson al situation. This means that
> >> >>>> ZPD do not belong to an individual but it is
> >> >>>> constructed or co-constructed. I also work in
> >> >>>> educational aplication of Vygotsky and I am tried to
> >> >>>> unified the concept od ZPD and Social Situation odf
> >> >>>> Development. What do you think about that
> >> >>>> Armando
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> __________________________________________________
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