absolutely, but how do we model that using zoped logic?
On 12/21/06, Paul Dillon <phd_crit_think@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Deb,
>
> I suppose two completely equally travelled individuals wouldn't have a lot
> to say to each other, it seems that each individual has travelled farther
> down some roads than others, and that these spaces always provide for some
> further learning.
>
> Paul
>
> deborah downing-wilson <ddowningw@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow. thanks for the road trip! sensei is certainly a provocative concept.
> how can we think about learning relationships where two equally travelled
> individuals forge new paths together? can we have zopeds then?
>
> deb
>
>
>
>
> On 12/20/06, Paul Dillon
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Eric,
> >
> > I've been reading this thread with some interest and I shared Deborah's
> > concern about "scientific concepts" as well as some other terms you used
> to
> > define the zoped.
> >
> > Drawing from a domain where there is absolutely no question of science,
> in
> > fact it is the anti-science, Zen Buddhism, I think there is a very
> useful
> > term that could help shed some light on how one might develop an
> adequate
> > "concept" (Zen militates against these) of what is a zoped. That term is
> > "sensei", which basically means: someone who is farther down the road
> than
> > someone else, someone that another can follow down the road.
> >
> > As should be obvious the concept of "down the road" implies that there
> is
> > a road and in zen it's almost like Machado's verse: "traveller, there is
> no
> > road, only markers in the sea, traveller there is no road, one makes the
> > road in travelling". But that is zen and returning to something of a
> > Kantian "island in the sea of the unknown", I think that the idea of a
> path
> > and people on a path, a path that is always developing into the unknown,
> > might be useful.
> >
> > If we think of the idea of boundaries, very much an element of
> Engestrom's
> > work, or of situation-limits, the concept Freire adopted from Karl
> Jaspers,
> > we have implicit that notion. Mike mentioned how he and (I believe)
> > Scribner discussed the zoped as a "conversation with a future". I think
> > that's a great description, if not a definition in the strict sense. Now
> to
> > have a conversation, one needs to be able to talk, and learning to talk
> is
> > basically at the heart of Vygotsky's work. So one talks, the talk is
> > related to culturally practical domains of activity. Someone farther
> down
> > the road is someone who has gotten closer to the boundaries where the
> > roads into the unknowns of that specific activity disappear. Someone can
> > show to some people how to get to the point that they have gotten to.
> The
> > person farther down the road basically creates the zoped by taking care
> to
> > try to make the road visible, followable. Clearly there are a lot of
> people
> > farther down the road
> > toward the boundaries where the roads disappear who cannot do this but
> > that's another question: the question of the teacher, something St.
> > Augustine wrote about 1600 years ago and of whom bob dylan had a
> > dream. Martin Heidegger said that the best teacher is the one who knows
> > best how to learn.
> >
> > For a baby everything is basically unknown and a baby grows up among
> > people who have grown up among people (extending into distant and
> forgotten
> > pasts) who have worked out various ways of dealing with moving through
> > different levels of the unknown. These are roads, there are lots of
> > roads-lots of ways to move toward specific locations or toward the
> > boundaries where the roads disappear, but I think the key to activity
> theory
> > is that all of them are related to human practices dealing with specific
> > needs that humans experience as incarnated and mortal beings (Marx's
> Theses
> > on Feuerbach). I don't think a zoped can be defined abstractly except in
> an
> > abstract way but I don't find it difficult to identify zopeds within
> > specific domains of human practice. I think your example was great, the
> > lecturer knew how to adjust to the people for whom he was farther down
> the
> > road than they, in fact, he was on a road that they couldn't previously
> see
> > as being relevant to their specific
> > practical needs and he made it relevant to those needs as a part of
> > creating the zoped.
> >
> > Sensei, nothing more nor less than someone farther down the road, what's
> > the practice and what needs does it relate to? Looking for some absolute
> > concept of zoped seems pointless, trying to define it so that one could
> > identify it in any context on the basis of a Carnapian logical matrix,
> > impossible. The key I think is to look at the practice, identify its
> road
> > and see how far people are along that road and how they make that road
> > relevant to someone who might not even know the road is there. Expanding
> > is moving beyond the known roads into what was previously unknown.
> >
> > Paul Dillon
> >
> > ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> >
> > Hello Deb:
> >
> > Thank you for your response to my question.
> >
> > When I use "scientific concept" I am using Vygotsky's term. Kozulin
> > describes the idea well in his intro to "Thought and Language" Pg
> xxxiii,
> > "Scientific concepts originate in the highly structured and specialized
> > activity of classroom instruction and impose on a child a logically
> > defined
> > concept. . ." I believe that there can be a zoped whenever any
> > culturally-historically logically constructed concept is the focus of a
> > culturally based activity that has an attainable goal as the outcome.
> Play
> > can be a culturally based activity with an attainable goal.
> >
> > maybe?
> > eric
> >
> >
> >
> > "deborah
> > downing-wilson" To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> >
> > .com> Subject: Re: [xmca] perhaps. . .
> > Sent by:
> > xmca-bounces who-is-at web
> > er.ucsd.edu
> >
> >
> > 12/20/2006 12:44
> > PM
> > Please respond
> > to "eXtended
> > Mind, Culture,
> > Activity"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Okay, now I'm really confused. How do we define "scientific concepts"?
> > Can
> > there be no zoped when artistic concepts, painting for example, are in
> > play?
> >
> > deb
> >
> >
> > On 12/20/06, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > . . .this may be a better definition of a zoped:
> > >
> > > a culturally based activity that provides an opportunity for
> individuals
> > > to
> > > apply scientific concepts to everyday experiences via the assistance
> of
> > > somebody more experienced with the scientific concepts related to the
> > > goals
> > > of the culturally based activity.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately I implied in the prior post there was assistance of
> > someone
> > > with experience. I would also like to emphasize that the question
> posed
> > > by
> > > the teacher in the room would be a set up to allow the students to ask
> > > questions of the speaker, fulfilling the imitation requirement that
> > > Vygotsky emphasizes in his chapter, "The development of scientific
> > > concepts
> > > in childhood" of his "Thought and Language" tome. Page 188 of the 1999
> > > Kozulin translated edition, "In the child's development. . .imitation
> > and
> > > instruction play a major role. . .what the child can do in cooperation
> > > today he can do alone tomorrow." I believe the example I provided
> > > yesterday would be what Vygotsky is referring to as cooperation.
> > >
> > > eric
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> Deborah Downing-Wilson
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