Nate,
I totally agree with you and while working my way through Hegel's Logic I
constantly made use of that process of visualization/copncretisation (e.g.,
use value= being, exchange value=essence, capital=notion) as well as Andy's
example of how a movement organizes itself.. Nevertheless, understanding
that the very structure of the ideal object contains levels of
contradictions and that the contradictions that occur at one stage of the
process are different than those that occur at another.level. But without
visualization/concretisation it is all most abstract!! Unless you know
Aristotle's Logic inside out it's very difficult to follow Hegel's Logic
since his material of investigation is precisely that.
Here it's important that Ilyenkov stated that there is no single way to
determine a concrete universal. No formula or general method; only deep
familarity with the material being investigated. I think this gets lost
when we discuss things formally and yes, the most interesting is the
concrete, but not just the empirically given, rather the object as cognized
in increasiling concrete determinateness.
The paper, "concept of the ideal". however, is philosophy and as such has
for its material issues that tend to be quite abstract to begin with, not
the kind of thing you absorb on one quick reading.
Paul H. Dillon
----- Original Message -----
From: Nate Schmolze <nate_schmolze@yahoo.com>
To: <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 3:53 PM
Subject: RE: ideal-golden key
> I guess mainly I saw the possibility for "the softer side of the ideal"
> (sorry sears). I have had some experience through manuscripts and videos
to
> look at the Russian preschool programs and have really liked them. I have
> tried reflecting on these programs with an assumption of the ideal playing
a
> role. Others included taking two year olds out to the woods with a
> professional artist to draw a tree the see. Reflection seems
theoretically
> pertinent here. Number free math was another interesting approach worth
> mentioning.
>
> My reaction to these programs was "unity" unity of culture and individual,
> unity of nature and child etc. Now, as one professor told me about
> statistics - make sure you take the Russian - they are could at connecting
> theory to life. What he was most likely referring to, as with Davydov's
> approach to science, was the practical implementation of "ascending to the
> concrete".
>
> I think what is happening in this debate in particular is discussing a
> concept like ideal without any content of its own (abstraction) and what
is
> left is adding our own. Andy's piece on Hegel is great in this regard it
is
> all explained in the context of a concrete struggle. My sense
abstraction -
> how Marx used them are a tool and they are dead things when not ascended
to
> the concrete.
>
> Funny thing about this is last semester we read a research report on a
> comparison between a Davydov school in Russia and a school in the U.K. Us
> Americans blasted it because the research was badly designed, the
assertions
> did not add up etc etc. It turns out it was a classic piece - highly
> referenced - mainly because the theoretical argument was strong. Now both
> the Russian and American would most likely make the claim for objectivity
> and truth but what qualifies as much is not necessarily the same.
>
> Nate
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul H.Dillon [mailto:illonph@pacbell.net]
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 12:28 PM
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: Re: ideal-golden key
>
>
> Nate,
>
> I found the piece you posted quite delightful. You didn't comment so I
can
> only guess at the way in which you might be seeing it as an example of how
> "the ideal would fit into an early childhood setting" but I do see that
the
> orientation of immediate educational practice to the union of sensuously
> given and historical-ideal forms of temporality structure a chain of ZPDs
.
> Is this the direction you were thinking? Can you expand on your own
> inspiration/understanding?
>
> One could well imagine that such a structure would provide for a very wide
> utilization of the different domains of human practice ranging from
> measuring where the sun is on the horizon to poetry and dance.
>
> Paul H. Dillon
>
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