Re: straw man? (w/prior messages)
Francoise Herrmann (fherrmann who-is-at igc.apc.org)
Sat, 27 Apr 1996 16:09:03 -0700 (PDT)
>
> Dear Francoise, I should have framed better my response to
> your response (to ....). I'll try once more to say where/how I
> differ from your position, as I have understood it anyway. I do
> not fuse the terms "pain" "cruelty" "sado-masochism" as you do;
> for me, these words have very different meanings & implications
> for lived experience. I tried to say in my previous note what
> I see as the important distinction between pain & cruelty.
> The distinction does entail a difference in moral judgement.
> In my view, cruelty is bad; pain is not necessarily. Perhaps
more
> important, I don't see a rigid barrier between pain & pleasure.
Pleasures
> are complex. Some people get pleasure from hurting others; from
feeling more
> powerful than others, etc. - I don't think of myself as "that
kind of
> person," but when I look closely at my triumphs, I realize that
I am not
> so different from "that kind of person." That realization is an
important
> resource for me when I reach for decency. Pleasure seems to be
> intimately implicated in sadistic & masochistic impulses. Moral
judgement
> does come into play, not because pleasure is good and not
because
> sadistic or masochistic impulses make one necessarily bad, but
because
> being good/decent is work, requires constant self examination
particularly
> of what gives us pleasure.
>
> We do agree on this point, that:
> >cruelty is never justifiable or escusable. When it is
perceived,
> >then responsible and caring actionbehooves us to change that
situation.
>
> I wouldn't lump pain in with cruelty, though. And, perhaps I am
> wrong, but self-enlightened sadists (those who know that they
get
> pleasure from hurting others) could choose not to hurt; then
they
> would be the most caring and responsible of all, since they
would
> know more profoundly than the rest of us what care &
responsibility
> are about.
>
> I say "no" to cruelty, Francoise, like you do. I hope the rest
of
> what I've said makes more sense to you. It's the best I could
do.
>
> - Judy
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Hi Judy, I feel good, but sometimes I also feel like a duck!
Quack! Quack! It is pain and cruelty that are fused with pleasure
and joy in sado-masochism for me. And fused is perhaps the wrong
word, cross-wired may be a better.
And I cannot imagine a triumph that is contingent upon someone elses
failure. There is something odd to me about the picture that you paint.
In chemistry there are these kinds of tubes that communicate so that
when you pour a volume of water in one of them the water goes into the
other tube too. That is the picture that I am getting and it somehow
doesn't fit with a picture of mutual constitution. I don't know
that things work the way that you describe them.
Francoise
Francoise Herrmann
fherrmann who-is-at igc.org