[Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis

Wed Jun 10 15:31:37 PDT 2020

Fair enough.  It was a huge deal in 2016, the big NYT included (thus
"groundbreaking"), and as far as I can tell, Fryer remains the gold
standard in this narrow field of research. Obviously, numerous skeptics of
the 'systemically-racist-America' hypothesis have been morivated to embrace
Fryer's conclusions, with others motivated against.

I can certainly be wrong, as I am outside my realm of expertise. To use
Andy's term, my trust network (decidedly NOT right wing on this particular
issue) has influenced my thinking in terms of the finer grained areas
outside my own skillset. Maybe I'm wrong, who knows, or maybe this
counterintuitive information has some merit. At least it's on the table,
where it should be.

Thank you, Martin. If I have the chance to read even more of Fryer's
critics, as well as his forthcoming work, I will.  Also, what are some of
the follow up questions you might ask, re: your post from earlier today?
For example, I think frequency of interactions (from what I hear,
correlating more with economic status than to race) is a big variable.

Thanks again,
Anthony

On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net> wrote:

> Hey, Anthony, it was you who brought up Flyer’s work in the first place.
> There is, I think, no need to shift to an ad hominin argument. I too would
> like to know if you still consider Flyer’s analysis to be “groundbreaking.”
> It was published in 2016, and the Washington Post only started collecting
> data in 2015. What you wrote, in fact, was that Flyer's work was
> "groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings
> on the matter).”  What do you say about the critiques of that work, and the
> more recent findings?
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 10, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Yes, Greg.
>
> I read all it all in depth 4 years ago (i.e., 4 years before this topic
> broached your radar).
>
> Maybe one day we'll chat when I have faith it will be in good faith.
>
> No offense, but it's just how your body of work comes across to me.
>
> Anthony
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Anthony,
>> Have you had a chance to dig into the Fryer data to see whether the
>> assumptions that he makes in controlling for variables are reasonable? And
>> whether he is justified in coming up with such a very different conclusion
>> from the Washington Post research that Martin cited (as well as most
>> other research that I've seen)?
>> In your original post, you characterized Fryer's study as
>> "groundbreaking" so I assume that you had your reasons for giving it such a
>> positive evaluation and felt it was sound in its reasoning and perhaps had
>> some kinds of insights that all the other researchers didn't. I'm
>> interested to hear what you've turned up.
>> Very best,
>> greg
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:31 PM Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net> wrote:
>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic__;!!Mih3wA!Uj4I_SJJ_oLhXiG7RsGIuG-6AKAH8rht3tNK2XEf9oWrdQipC5QJXHuqpn83bzjMfESmiQ$ 
>>> e-shootings-database/
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/__;!!Mih3wA!S2mWxWtYZXktNivc9GOaZzE8nQoqJ0TmLqnTuoEidjOQew2pZXQQZXmnKCt6MMPHQ4YmFA$>
>>>
>>> In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-year-end/__;!!Mih3wA!S2mWxWtYZXktNivc9GOaZzE8nQoqJ0TmLqnTuoEidjOQew2pZXQQZXmnKCt6MMPUoulQDQ$> by
>>> an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have
>>> been more than 5,000 such shootings
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/09/what-weve-learned-about-police-shootings-years-after-ferguson/?arc404=true__;!!Mih3wA!S2mWxWtYZXktNivc9GOaZzE8nQoqJ0TmLqnTuoEidjOQew2pZXQQZXmnKCt6MMNSVXVYTg$> recorded
>>> by The Post….
>>>
>>> Although half of the people shot and killed by police are white, black
>>> Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/__;!!Mih3wA!S2mWxWtYZXktNivc9GOaZzE8nQoqJ0TmLqnTuoEidjOQew2pZXQQZXmnKCt6MMNVto8f_A$>.
>>> They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are
>>> killed by police at more than twice the rate of white Americans. Hispanic
>>> Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate.
>>>
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Michael,
>>>
>>> Much of the claim rests in Roland Freyer's 2016 multivariate analysis,
>>> groundbreaking at the time (though I don't know the very latest findings on
>>> the matter): https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprisin__;!!Mih3wA!Uj4I_SJJ_oLhXiG7RsGIuG-6AKAH8rht3tNK2XEf9oWrdQipC5QJXHuqpn83bzjy6oa0Ug$ 
>>> g-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-
>>> shootings.html
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html__;!!Mih3wA!S18nvB-bJf3z_eNSjHPT3rWUU-YDJmOewUS-_eVjP4nwhyrQvSiFE_5aqUIHnjG437QrnA$>
>>>
>>>
>>> I believe Glenn Loury was once his advisor in graduate economics, though
>>> I could be mistaken there.
>>>
>>> I respect this community and in no way seek to bring dis- or
>>> misinformation into it, especially on topics that may require numerous key
>>> strokes just to get one's footing.
>>>
>>> Thank you for understanding, and I agree! Let's not argue.
>>>
>>> Anthony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men.
>>>> What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from
>>>> very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have
>>>> strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few
>>>> key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well
>>>> founded social science.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions
>>>> was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to
>>>> proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The
>>>> list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is
>>>> possible in this day and age.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with
>>>> anybody.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.e
>>>> du> *On Behalf Of *Bill Kerr
>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM
>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> hi Anthony,
>>>>
>>>> I watched both videos.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on
>>>> a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they
>>>> murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the
>>>> police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not
>>>> disproportionate murder of black people.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American
>>>> race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and
>>>> MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black
>>>> disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is
>>>> the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose
>>>> in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school
>>>> experience.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is
>>>> one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose
>>>> from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they
>>>> were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which
>>>> led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency
>>>> which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This
>>>> history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering,
>>>> but is still not widely understood.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness,
>>>> and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate
>>>> to!  What a year so far.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone
>>>> potentially curious:
>>>>
>>>> First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!Uj4I_SJJ_oLhXiG7RsGIuG-6AKAH8rht3tNK2XEf9oWrdQipC5QJXHuqpn83bzjxiYZ_yQ$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!XgM3_X1riF_AYwqfZ7zTT0dslCVEzwkmg1Kw-a63ReNKrqh653kZrirxQ_TR4yBatxTfPw$> featuring
>>>> Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link
>>>> that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle
>>>> commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes:
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!Uj4I_SJJ_oLhXiG7RsGIuG-6AKAH8rht3tNK2XEf9oWrdQipC5QJXHuqpn83bzj-0ETndg$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!XgM3_X1riF_AYwqfZ7zTT0dslCVEzwkmg1Kw-a63ReNKrqh653kZrirxQ_TR4yB6mIcWCw$>
>>>>   (as least as far as I've yet encountered).  Coleman shares his
>>>> perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these
>>>> videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against
>>>> the headwinds a fair amount.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anthony
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> To the wonderful garden of Us and Them,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the
>>>> riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46,
>>>> including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them
>>>> here and in the streets for a little while still.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the
>>>> color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for
>>>> him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle
>>>> small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy,
>>>> shouldn't it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest,
>>>> we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter
>>>> violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky
>>>> chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with
>>>> flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in
>>>> unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> NO Vi-Oh-LENCE!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might
>>>> appreciate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of
>>>> desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is
>>>> just one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if
>>>> there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by
>>>> peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and
>>>> the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can
>>>> rationalize their dear riot gear.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and
>>>> clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is
>>>> referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha."
>>>> They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who
>>>> architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like
>>>> watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a
>>>> beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the
>>>> antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I
>>>> wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be
>>>> solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember
>>>> coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in
>>>> 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed
>>>> looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window.
>>>> Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few
>>>> nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters circling. This
>>>> morning I drove down a street with many business having their windows
>>>> boarded up. There were no people rioting or anything like that. I think
>>>> these folks are fearful of having their plate glass windows smashed in the
>>>> night by a fictitious rioting hurricane, that will just not happen on that
>>>> street. But then there is no way to see into those shops now. I thought
>>>> maybe they are just duck-and-covering under all that plywood. Is anyone in
>>>> there?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also saw someone had spray painted the words in black drippy spray
>>>> paint on a white sheet. "White Silence is Violence" and this was hanging in
>>>> a gentrified neighborhood. It seemed the perfect place to hang it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also wanted to ask the list whether it is only racism that we are
>>>> protesting?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There was a tech who came to install my internet today. He is African
>>>> American. I asked him, "Did you hear about all the protests all over the
>>>> world? When I heard about it I started crying." To which he said, "Yeah,
>>>> well but what about the other two guys that were killed? I think all those
>>>> people came out because being shut in they just have nothing better to do."
>>>> I said, "Well I understand that's a cynical way to look at it, but maybe
>>>> it's a sign that something is going to change." He said, "Yeah, maybe it
>>>> will." And I said, "Let's remain hopeful."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I really appreciated that exchange. Together he and I made an
>>>> interesting dyad of viewpoints about what is actually going on here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My own consciousness about race is exposed here, but I thought the
>>>> entire point of racism is to reduce people to a construct that is somehow
>>>> built upon genetic features, like skin color, and then to layer that with
>>>> this color is better than that one, and even to dehumanize one color from
>>>> another, ir I should say to create a spectrum of dehumanization, light to
>>>> heavy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then I thought also that the point is to Eracism, not to perpetuate
>>>> more of it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My next thought was about people with disabilities. They are likely far
>>>> more oppressed than any other vulnerable group. I don't think we could ever
>>>> fathom disabled folks rioting in the streets for being killed in many ways
>>>> the the disabled are, or who have their lives reduced by being
>>>> institutionalized because of the bodies in which they were born.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The same might be said about the seriously mentally ill. As a mental
>>>> exercise take any oppressed group and fill that space.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I was following the bead of this comparison in my mind to think about
>>>> how would inclusivity of the disabled in protest be provided in a time like
>>>> now? (Give we are making room for kids to protest?) Or are the disabled
>>>> even left behind while everyone else has the privilege to protest?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The only thing I feel might be a conclusion is that we fight for human
>>>> rights and for non-violence, but also for inclusivity and our innate right
>>>> to love one another.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That everyone every single one of us matters. When every single one of
>>>> us matters, there is no need to distinguish favorites, up or down, left or
>>>> right.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That day is not here yet because only some of us matters, and some of
>>>> us doesn't.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not big on Biden, but he is one of the first mainstreamers to
>>>> vocalize that we have an open wound that needs dressing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then I thought how Biden has the privilege of saying that outright
>>>> where Obama was not. My memory might be incorrect, however, it was only
>>>> until Fergusen that Obama came out to speak but only in a very circumspect
>>>> tone, if only that he could not be bridled as an angry black man.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wondered if anyone might present an imagination of what positive
>>>> change might develop out of all of this, if you are able to shush the
>>>> cynic-within.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Or is my cable internet guy right? The protests are just a holiday, a
>>>> way to get out of the house because too many of us have cabin fever.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you all in advance for your contributions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Annalisa
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <
>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor
>> Department of Anthropology
>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>> Brigham Young University
>> Provo, UT 84602
>> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Uj4I_SJJ_oLhXiG7RsGIuG-6AKAH8rht3tNK2XEf9oWrdQipC5QJXHuqpn83bzgBspf0nw$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Shqs3OD689e0Ovix0bSNtd32esN8kS7Hda_MujiV9bSl5F9BLq3ustuvMvWfrJF8_yJcsQ$>
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Uj4I_SJJ_oLhXiG7RsGIuG-6AKAH8rht3tNK2XEf9oWrdQipC5QJXHuqpn83bzhq4v1fWw$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Shqs3OD689e0Ovix0bSNtd32esN8kS7Hda_MujiV9bSl5F9BLq3ustuvMvWfrJGzSE1zhg$>
>>
>
>
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