[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?

Andy Blunden andyb@marxists.org
Sat Jan 18 16:35:04 PST 2020


Foucault is the modern version of quietism.

Andy

------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Hegel for Social Movements <https://brill.com/view/title/54574>
Home Page <https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
On 19/01/2020 10:32 am, robsub@ariadne.org.uk wrote:
> Is this not Foucault's concept of governmentality? In 
> other words *you* control yourself the way *they* want you to.
>
> Can "self-control" be regarded as a tool? Then, like all 
> tools, the purpose for which it is used depends on the user.
>
> Rob
>
> On 18/01/2020 20:48, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
>>
>> Martin, (just catched your post quickly), I think your 
>> example makes it quite clear that self control and 
>> emancipation are not the same, right? Rhat is sort of 
>> what I was getting into when a few posts ago I pointed 
>> out that a lot of the meta-cognition and critical 
>> thinking etc… has made it to mainstream education for a 
>> good while now, including the so-called 21^st century 
>> skills, and yet, I would not consider much of what is 
>> done in formal education (and much of what is raised in 
>> educational research) as having that “higher” moral 
>> character implied in the notion of emancipation (not to 
>> free oneself from conditions, which I think is what Haydi 
>> is getting at), and apparently much of what has been 
>> taught hasn’t been very useful for surviving the 21^st 
>> century…
>>
>> Haydi, thanks for your careful response and patience. 
>> Michael, what you just wrote (about being vs becoming), 
>> which is very much to the point, reminded me of Ortega y 
>> Gasset’s: “The only thing that is given to us and that is 
>> when there is human life is the having to make it … Life 
>> is a task”
>>
>> Alfredo
>>
>> *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of 
>> Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net>
>> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" 
>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Date: *Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 21:37
>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" 
>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>>
>> Tell me if I am inadvertently highjacking the thread 
>> here, but something that has puzzled me for some time is 
>> this. If someone becomes able to control their own 
>> behavior, is this necessarily emancipatory? A child can 
>> engage in self-control in order to do something 
>> completely new, something that transforms their own 
>> ecology and opens up new possibilities for themselves and 
>> other people. True. But equally, a child can engage in 
>> self-control in order to do precisely what their 
>> caregiver (or their government) wants and tells them to 
>> do. Are these both emancipatory? Are these both examples 
>> of ‘executive function’? Are they both occasions of the 
>> higher psychological functions (deliberate and conscious)?
>>
>> Puzzled...
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>>     On Jan 17, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Peter Feigenbaum
>>     <pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>     <mailto:pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>     Michael and Andy,
>>
>>     If you'll permit me to jump into this conversation, I
>>     can help answer Michael's questions. As a long-time
>>     researcher of private (egocentric) speech, I see
>>     Vygotsky's theoretical assertions about the movement
>>     inward of signs (or, more precisely, the externally
>>     existing social system of speech communication)
>>     during child development as standing in sharp
>>     contrast to the nativist assertions that verbal
>>     thinking is an inborn biological system. But more
>>     pertinent to your discussion, by placing the source
>>     of human verbal thinking in the social sphere rather
>>     than the biological sphere, Vygotsky also embraces
>>     the primary function of signs as a social means for
>>     controlling the consciousness of others. What happens
>>     during the development of private speech is that this
>>     artificially created means of social control of
>>     others passes to the child as part of the process of
>>     acquiring the system of speech communication. As a
>>     derivative of the primary function of signs, inner
>>     speech becomes a child's means of controlling his or
>>     her own consciousness. Possessing control over one's
>>     own consciousness is nothing less than emancipatory.
>>     Neat trick, eh?
>>
>>     Sorry to intervene!  Carry on.
>>
>>     Cheers,
>>
>>     Peter
>>
>>     On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:57 AM Glassman, Michael
>>     <glassman.13@osu.edu <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>         This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I
>>         read it is the sentence “Its theoretical goal is
>>         the prediction and control of behavior.” These
>>         days I see Vygotsky as advocating for thinking as
>>         a tool that can predict and control the ecology.
>>         Of course Watson is saying (like most
>>         behaviorists) you can’t go inside the head. Is
>>         Vygotsky saying that internalized tools are the
>>         same as external tools? Is that why he emphasizes
>>         the initial external to internal migrations of
>>         tools we use to control the ecology around us?
>>         Was he trying to split this differences, you can
>>         go inside the head if you accept that was is
>>         inside the head is a consequence of what is
>>         outside the head? For me it puts the whole idea
>>         of contextualism in a different light.
>>
>>         Michael
>>
>>         *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>         <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> *On
>>         Behalf Of *Andy Blunden
>>         *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM
>>         *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>         *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>>
>>         Here is what J B Watson had to say about
>>         Behaviourism:
>>
>>             “Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a
>>             purely objective experimental branch of
>>             natural science. Its theoretical goal is the
>>             prediction and control of behavior.
>>             Introspection forms no essential part of its
>>             methods, nor is the scientific value of its
>>             data dependent upon the readiness with which
>>             they lend themselves to interpretation in
>>             terms of consciousness. The behaviorist, in
>>             his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal
>>             response, recognizes no dividing line between
>>             man and brute” (‘Psychology as the
>>             Behaviorist Views it’, 1913)
>>
>>         Andy
>>
>>         ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>         *Andy Blunden*
>>         Hegel for Social Movements
>>         <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!KGKeukY!kAhm2-MhmeEb01UGseDSvAZrvZnJtObSQddV0XOYmjieDbMEOEMJQ1-jaTJz_kABKaH3hjUn$>
>>         Home Page
>>         <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!KGKeukY!kAhm2-MhmeEb01UGseDSvAZrvZnJtObSQddV0XOYmjieDbMEOEMJQ1-jaTJz_kABKUW5Le1w$>
>>
>>
>>         On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
>>
>>             What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I
>>             meant behaviorism as a science of control
>>             from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise
>>             the question “what type of pedagogy do arrive
>>             at when you take the S-R scheme (and
>>             conditioning) as your main explanatory
>>             scheme?” If you raise the same question from
>>             a sociocultural perspective, the answer is
>>             quite different, and allows for issues of
>>             freedom in a whole new light.
>>
>>             In terms of Vygotsky’s positions, I think you
>>             render a valid reading.
>>
>>             Although I think that today’s school
>>             curricula in most countries are quite
>>             explicit on the importance of the “adaptable
>>             thinking skills” that you refer to, rather
>>             than on educating for jobs (although I can
>>             see that is still the underlying assumption).
>>             You can read about those skills in the
>>             so-called XXIst century skills, very extended
>>             in recent educational reforms (including
>>             critical thinking skills, creativity,
>>             collaborative skills, digital skills…). I am
>>             afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises
>>             that we are facing are very quickly and
>>             patently showing how narrow our
>>             understandings of the sort of skills needed
>>             to survive in the XXIst century are. I think
>>             that what the climate crisis is showing us is
>>             that we need to connect those notions of
>>             thinking with the practical socio-economical
>>             organization of power and of the relations of
>>             humans with nature. I don’t remember now
>>             where I read that a scientist had been
>>             including spikes of civil activism,
>>             disobedience, and social disrest in his/her
>>             climate prediction computer models, and was
>>             showing that these were the only variables
>>             that may have a largest, quickest effect in
>>             achieving the gas emission reductions needed
>>             (if you can reduce the solution to reducing
>>             gas emissions…). I think events today are
>>             re-writing the way “progressing towards a
>>             modern world” made concious thinking more
>>             relevant… But this is a digression, sorry!
>>
>>             Alfredo
>>
>>             *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>             <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on
>>             behalf of "Glassman, Michael"
>>             <glassman.13@osu.edu>
>>             <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>
>>             *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture,
>>             Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>             <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>             *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49
>>             *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>>             <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>             <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>             *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>>
>>             Hi Alfredo and Andy,
>>
>>             I am not sure I agree with this
>>             characterization of behaviorism.  Especially
>>             at the time he was writing behaviorism was
>>             for the most part I think focusing on the
>>             behaviors of individuals rather than going
>>             inside the head to understand what
>>             individuals did. It cast quite a wide net,
>>             from Thorndike to Mead. But I don’t think at
>>             this point that Vygotsky had a dog in a
>>             cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am
>>             wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this point
>>             as not so much discussing control of
>>             individuals by those outside them (at least
>>             not directly) but the ways individuals are
>>             able to control the ecologies around them. He
>>             sees this occurring in two possible ways,
>>             being able to use internalized tools in order
>>             to directly control the ecology, and being
>>             able to control their own thinking so that
>>             they can actually play (not the right word)
>>             with these internalized symbols before
>>             applying them. He has not difficulty with the
>>             former, and all that is really necessary is
>>             to be taught different applications for
>>             limited situations. But as we progressed to a
>>             modern world the ability to lead a
>>             satisfactory life from a small set of
>>             applications you might say becomes more and
>>             more difficult. Humans developed more
>>             abstract thinking, controlling their thoughts
>>             to deal with a quickly changing and
>>             heterogenous ecology, but this demanded
>>             conscious effort on the part of social
>>             interlocutors (formal teaching). The
>>             difficulty he raises in the socialist
>>             alteration of man is that this type of
>>             conscious effort was limited to only a small
>>             population that then used their more
>>             adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to
>>             say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate
>>             from control) those who were on the lower
>>             rungs of society. I mean we continue to do
>>             this today when we argue to educate students
>>             for specific jobs but do not offer broader
>>             education in thinking (there is nothing wrong
>>             in training in skills such as mechanics and
>>             plumbing, but unless we teach people to
>>             manipulate their thinking about those skills
>>             they will never really have control of what
>>             they do in a complex society. I don’t think
>>             that is what Vygotsky was writing about in
>>             Crisis, but it does set up a road map for
>>             where he wants to go, which I actually think
>>             you can see in part even in his dissertation
>>             on Hamlet.
>>
>>             Michael
>>
>>             *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>             <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>             <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>             <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
>>             Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil
>>             *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM
>>             *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>             <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>             <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>             *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>>
>>             Andy, all,
>>
>>             Behaviorism as the science of controlling
>>             people, as the opposite of an emancipatory
>>             science, is exactly how I teach it in my
>>             learning theory courses. I too find the most
>>             useful reading of Vygotsky’s attempts as
>>             aiming at an emancipatory science, although
>>             clearly the instrumental bend in some of the
>>             formulations gets in the way, including the
>>             terminology of “control” that also
>>             characterized, for example, Dewey’s ideas on
>>             inquiry. “The artificial control of behavior”
>>             could for example be as well formulated as
>>             the object-oriented activity of a social
>>             movement, which precisely aims to gain
>>             “control” over conditions for development;
>>             only that “control” might be a quite
>>             misleading way of posing it…
>>
>>             Alfredo
>>
>>             *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>             <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on
>>             behalf of Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org
>>             <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
>>             *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture,
>>             Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>             <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>             *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52
>>             *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>             <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>"
>>             <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>             <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>             *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>>
>>             Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his
>>             (translated) word. He wants "a scientific
>>             theory which would lead to the subordination
>>             and mastery of the mind, to the artificial
>>             control of behaviour" and whether he likes
>>             Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs
>>             is, to me, irrelevant.
>>
>>             Now there /is /an ambiguity in Vygotsky's
>>             claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would
>>             define as the science of controlling people,
>>             and as such is the opposite of an
>>             emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly
>>             interested in, on the other hand, is giving
>>             to people the capacity to control /their own/
>>             mind. But this is not clear from the above,
>>             and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His
>>             writing on "socialist man" and the business
>>             with lie detectors suggest that there were
>>             some blind spots there.
>>
>>             Anyway, I was only interested in using the
>>             quote for my own purposes in contrasting the
>>             academic literature on "social Movement
>>             Studies" and that genre of social movement
>>             literature written by and for activist, which
>>             is usually narrative or autobiographical in
>>             style, and in the above sense "technic"
>>             rather than "epistemology."
>>
>>             Andy
>>
>>             ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>             *Andy Blunden*
>>             Hegel for Social Movements
>>             <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!KGKeukY!mrT6LtMASo6iMbjfKmsIkMmzZQzGLVGZkfw0x1WC8SwszUCXq-0wxCJX5hQJe8BHX5U$>
>>             Home Page
>>             <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!KGKeukY!mrT6LtMASo6iMbjfKmsIkMmzZQzGLVGZkfw0x1WC8SwszUCXq-0wxCJX5hQJhs-ll44$>
>>
>>
>>             On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>
>>                 I don’t know, the sense I get is that he
>>                 was really criticizing Musterberg, not
>>                 embracing him, at least from what I read
>>                 in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we
>>                 should be wary of this idea of a
>>                 practical psychology that can use
>>                 empirical means to look predict human
>>                 behavior. One hint I get from the piece
>>                 is his mention of using practical
>>                 psychology to determine whether people
>>                 should be tram drivers. To me it sounds
>>                 like he was arguing also against the
>>                 rising use of intelligence tests as a
>>                 psychological tool. James brought over
>>                 Musterberg in part I think to explore the
>>                 idea of empirical psychology and
>>                 Musterberg it seems wound up merging
>>                 empirical and practical in ways that
>>                 Vygotsky thought might be detrimental,
>>                 rightfully suggesting it would send
>>                 psychology towards the types of practical
>>                 models of the physical sciences where it
>>                 did not belong, something that I think
>>                 has plagued the field since. At least
>>                 from my reading of this piece is that
>>                 Vygotsky also found it confusing that
>>                 Musterberg by following James was also
>>                 grabbing hold of an idealist vision of
>>                 psychology, that people behave in certain
>>                 ways because they were human. Vygotsky
>>                 seemed to think that there was no way to
>>                 reconcile this. At this moment I see this
>>                 as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky
>>                 wanted to go, finding a way to merge the
>>                 idealist vision with a material approach
>>                 but not falling into a trap in either
>>                 direction. He did not want to be Wundt
>>                 and he did not want to be Musterberg, he
>>                 definitely wanted nothing to do with the
>>                 intelligence testers who combined
>>                 “empirical” and practical psychology for
>>                 ideological reasons (just recently heard
>>                 about Thomas Teo’s idea of epistemic
>>                 violence. I think that might fit in here).
>>
>>                 Michael
>>
>>                 *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>                 <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                 <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                 <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                 *On Behalf Of *Jussi Silvonen
>>                 *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM
>>                 *To:* mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
>>                 <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>; eXtended Mind,
>>                 Culture, Activity
>>                 <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                 <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                 *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>>
>>                 Mike,
>>
>>                 take a look at Internet Archive
>>                 (archive.org <http://archive.org/>), you
>>                 can find PDF files of most of
>>                 Münsterberg's books there. It is obvious,
>>                 that Müsterberg had  a great influence on
>>                 LSV, at least in his theory's
>>                 instrumental phase.
>>
>>                 JusSi
>>
>>                 ----------------
>>                 Jussi Silvonen
>>                 Dosentti
>>                 Itä-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus
>>                 Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto
>>                 PL 111 (Metria)
>>                 80101 Joensuu
>>                 ------------------
>>                 https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home
>>                 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wiki.uef.fi/display/*jsilvone@uef.fi/Home__;fg!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIe9sFnfP$>
>>                 https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen
>>                 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen__;!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIREamwTv$>
>>                 http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/
>>                 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/__;!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIRbRK5sy$>
>>
>>                 ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>                 *Lähettäjä:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>                 <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                 <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>                 <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>                 käyttäjän mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>                 <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>> puolesta
>>                 *Lähetetty:* keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta
>>                 2020 19.56
>>                 *Vastaanottaja:* eXtended Mind, Culture,
>>                 Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>                 <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>                 *Aihe:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>>
>>                 In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and
>>                 was deeply immersed in the problem of the
>>                 "two psychologies" that LSV sought to
>>                 supercede. For a quick take on
>>                 "psychotechnics" in work, check his book
>>                 out on google and search the term. For
>>                 example,
>>
>>                 Psychotechnics is really a technical
>>                 science related to a causal
>>                 [experimental-mc] psychology as
>>                 engineering is related to physics.
>>                 Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the
>>                 future while the psychohistorical
>>                 sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg,
>>                 1915, p.354)
>>
>>                 It would be interesting to stage a
>>                 discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. 
>>                 Which one would have more to say for his
>>                 accomplishments view from, say, 2020?
>>
>>                 And if someone has a pdf of the book,
>>                 please sing out!
>>
>>                 mike
>>
>>                 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman,
>>                 Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu
>>                 <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>                     I don’t know, I read it that he was
>>                     criticizing Munsterberg with his
>>                     discussion of psychotechnics, which I
>>                     guess was the title of Munsterberg’s
>>                     last book. To meet it reads like
>>                     Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was
>>                     falling into a dangerous materialist
>>                     trap. Maybe that’s what you are
>>                     saying Andy.
>>
>>                     Michael
>>
>>                     *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>                     <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                     <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>                     <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>                     *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden
>>                     *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020
>>                     2:39 AM
>>                     *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>                     <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                     *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful
>>                     psychology?
>>
>>                     This is what I was looking for:
>>
>>                     https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207
>>                     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.marxists.org*2Farchive*2Fvygotsky*2Fworks*2Fcrisis*2Fpsycri12.htm*p1207__*3BIw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkzm3Ep0s*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412462637&sdata=OBOvR6IPfkMeN4eKIcrZXz5aDBjX1t5LB6LokEBXrDg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIXDWyWWT$>
>>
>>                     It was the exclusion of
>>                     "psychotechnics" from the fundamental
>>                     problems of psychology which he
>>                     objected to. On the contrary, the
>>                     philosophy of practice provided all
>>                     the solutions to these problems. "The
>>                     goal of such a psychology is not
>>                     Shakespeare in concepts, as it was
>>                     for Dilthey, but */in one word –
>>                     psychotechnics/*, i.e., a scientific
>>                     theory which would lead to the
>>                     subordination and mastery of the
>>                     mind, to the artificial control of
>>                     behaviour."
>>
>>                     Thanks all.
>>                     Andy
>>
>>                     ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>                     *Andy Blunden*
>>                     Hegel for Social Movements
>>                     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBk8iLcReg*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412472638&sdata=hBx7qflf4m9p8uTE*2B4alLHqD4n1aMpxrwmV7dWRuyqc*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIZm3eJhg$>
>>                     Home Page
>>                     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBk7OSM06Y*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412472638&sdata=ZI48nZtfz6lMy2*2BE6nm84IFOiB2DeCOirmEhCw3o0qg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIVQug3id$>
>>
>>
>>                     On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg
>>                     wrote:
>>
>>                         But psychotechnics was really the
>>                         Soviet version of human resource
>>                         management. The idea was to
>>                         select particular "types" for
>>                         particular jobs. It wasn't really
>>                         a Soviet idea--it started in
>>                         Germany (and in fact, the Nazis
>>                         were very big on it; the
>>                         selection ramp at Auschwitz was
>>                         based on it). In China, there was
>>                         also quite a bit of emphasis on
>>                         making sure that people suited
>>                         the professions chosen for them,
>>                         as education was a very scarce
>>                         resource.
>>
>>                         Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's
>>                         brother, who was a colleague of
>>                         Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician;
>>                         his essay on the language of the
>>                         Red Army soldier is written with
>>                         that perspective in mind. And it
>>                         was at a psychotechnic conference
>>                         that Vygotsky was asked if there
>>                         could be a pedology of adults, to
>>                         aid in psychotechnic selection.
>>
>>                         Vygotsky said no.
>>
>>
>>                         David Kellogg
>>
>>                         Sangmyung University
>>
>>                         New Article: 'Commentary: On the
>>                         originality of Vygotsky's
>>                         "Thought and Word" i
>>
>>                         in /Mind Culture and Activity/
>>
>>                         /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775
>>                         <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Fdoi*2Ffull*2F10.1080*2F10749039.2020.1711775__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBktaxJh-A*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412482626&sdata=yllUDzZhK8*2BCHvi8HXvoxP457gXRNAa8VYC*2FPC4PQtc*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIWQuZxxv$>/
>>
>>                         Some free e-prints available at:
>>
>>                         https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775
>>                         <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Feprint*2FSK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY*2Ffull*3Ftarget*3D10.1080*10749039.2020.1711775__*3BLw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkmu8ynwE*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412482626&sdata=6*2B8dfqrBCex1zj*2Fmqw0i5RKwp0LGBvcc1zZjt*2BjGEjk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIUbsFhIY$>
>>
>>                         New Translation with Nikolai
>>                         Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's
>>                         Pedological Works Volume One:
>>                         Foundations of Pedology"
>>
>>                         https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270
>>                         <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.springer.com*2Fgp*2Fbook*2F9789811505270__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkiawojtY*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412492624&sdata=PDdGgIgXqxWaVkzWvkE*2B24nBKC6nX6Vv*2Bq1mROYzdMk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QISHX4tYT$>
>>
>>                         On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM
>>                         mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>                         <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>                             Might you be looking for
>>                             “psychotechnics” Andy?
>>
>>                             Mike
>>
>>                             On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35
>>                             PM David Kellogg
>>                             <dkellogg60@gmail.com
>>                             <mailto:dkellogg60@gmail.com>>
>>                             wrote:
>>
>>                                 Andy--
>>
>>                                 That really doesn't sound
>>                                 like Vygotsky to me.
>>
>>                                 Yes, he refers to art as
>>                                 the "social technique of
>>                                 emotion" (Psychology of
>>                                 Art). Yes, he did
>>                                 experiments on reading
>>                                 "Gentle Breath" to see if
>>                                 Bunin's short story had
>>                                 any affect on breathing
>>                                 rates. But as far as I
>>                                 know he had nothing to do
>>                                 with Luria's work on lie
>>                                 detectors (in The Nature
>>                                 of Human Conflict), and
>>                                 he was even rather
>>                                 skeptical of Luria's work
>>                                 on optical illusions in
>>                                 "uneducated" peoples
>>
>>                                 . Remember, this is the
>>                                 guy who denied that a
>>                                 general psychology could
>>                                 ever cut itself off from
>>                                 practice and vice versa
>>                                 (History of the Crisis in
>>                                 Psychology), who rejected
>>                                 the idea that thinking is
>>                                 speech with the sound
>>                                 turned off (Thinking and
>>                                 Speech). Besides, who
>>                                 ever heard of a
>>                                 technology opposed to an
>>                                 epistemology? What would
>>                                 that mean? A hand without
>>                                 a brain?
>>
>>                                 Vygotsky sounds more like
>>                                 this: "Neither the hand
>>                                 nor the brain left to
>>                                 itself can do much."
>>                                 Francis Bacon, /Novum
>>                                 Organum/ (1620), Book 1,
>>                                 Aphorism 2.
>>
>>
>>                                 David Kellogg
>>
>>                                 Sangmyung University
>>
>>                                 New Article: 'Commentary:
>>                                 On the originality of
>>                                 Vygotsky's "Thought and
>>                                 Word" i
>>
>>                                 in /Mind Culture and
>>                                 Activity/
>>
>>                                 /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775
>>                                 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Fdoi*2Ffull*2F10.1080*2F10749039.2020.1711775__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBktaxJh-A*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412492624&sdata=BP3oUS62Il2ysAn5qg8wmdRgzXL88z*2FStKI*2Bh6VwUKw*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIW8z2T_v$>/
>>
>>                                 Some free e-prints
>>                                 available at:
>>
>>                                 https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775
>>                                 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Feprint*2FSK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY*2Ffull*3Ftarget*3D10.1080*10749039.2020.1711775__*3BLw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkmu8ynwE*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412502616&sdata=sDCVNon8FCfDczqUlefwc6O6XRxMu7kgYtTX5KhfPSk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIUEJFvpx$>
>>
>>                                 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at
>>                                 11:49 AM Andy Blunden
>>                                 <andyb@marxists.org
>>                                 <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
>>                                 wrote:
>>
>>                                     There's somewhere
>>                                     where Vygotsky talks
>>                                     about psychology as a
>>                                     technology as opposed
>>                                     to (for example) an
>>                                     epistemology. Can
>>                                     anyone point me to
>>                                     where this
>>                                     observation is to be
>>                                     found. I can find it
>>                                     with my search
>>                                     engines. I think
>>                                     Vygotsky and Luria's
>>                                     invention of the
>>                                     lie-detector has been
>>                                     mentioned in this
>>                                     connection.
>>
>>                                     Andy
>>
>>                                     -- 
>>
>>                                     ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>                                     *Andy Blunden*
>>                                     Hegel for Social
>>                                     Movements
>>                                     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBk8iLcReg*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412502616&sdata=q5ZRtmU7n76mwg2owaHdn8LcNDmLEHxREaF04n263AQ*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QITY6oecw$>
>>                                     Home Page
>>                                     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBk7OSM06Y*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412512609&sdata=r3AyHyk8zmlFhrR7IW5kr51MZsY8ohkyUWlVW9jyKpM*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIaQ-1kB-$>
>>
>>
>>                             -- 
>>
>>                              fiction is but a form of
>>                             symbolic action, a mere game
>>                             of “as if”, therein lies its
>>                             true  function and its
>>                             potential for effecting
>>                             change - R. Ellison
>>
>>                             ---------------------------------------------------
>>
>>                             For archival resources
>>                             relevant to the research of
>>                             myself and other members of
>>                             LCHC, visit
>>
>>                             lchc.ucsd.edu
>>                             <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2Flchc.ucsd.edu__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkAj8DVL0*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412512609&sdata=gpiCZeiosXnQSx4T2Qe3TjykJII53mXoOxw290oXsMA*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIX0clSVO$>. 
>>                             For a narrative history of
>>                             the research of LCHC, visit
>>                             lchcautobio.ucsd.edu
>>                             <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2Flchcautobio.ucsd.edu__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkRAeC65Q*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412522609&sdata=t2P5tYIsk3GCrG8v5UtA9qX28ejZW*2BnuLzQfRupbPL8*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIfoqvbhu$>.
>>
>>
>>                 -- 
>>
>>                  fiction is but a form of symbolic
>>                 action, a mere game of “as if”, therein
>>                 lies its true  function and its potential
>>                 for effecting change - R. Ellison
>>
>>                 ---------------------------------------------------
>>
>>                 For archival resources relevant to the
>>                 research of myself and other members of
>>                 LCHC, visit
>>
>>                 lchc.ucsd.edu
>>                 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Flchc.ucsd.edu&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412522609&sdata=7SppP1Yvcb2dKzCKoZVcsxSc317*2FVcl6Kpfghe0O2Hg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIbLpkCwJ$>. 
>>                 For a narrative history of the research
>>                 of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu
>>                 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Flchcautobio.ucsd.edu&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412532604&sdata=F8KGSR10*2BDM*2BkgdBt*2FCc9Nobo9vvGTCOGRRz6g9P*2FeY*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIReAJOUT$>.
>>
>>
>>     -- 
>>
>>     Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>
>>     Director,
>>
>>     Office of Institutional Research
>>     <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>
>>     Fordham University
>>
>>     Thebaud Hall-202
>>
>>     Bronx, NY 10458
>>
>>     Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>
>>     Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>
>>     email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>     <mailto:pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu>
>>
>
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