[Xmca-l] Re: Corrections to Henry's notes on Huw's video

Huw Lloyd huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
Wed Aug 26 05:06:35 PDT 2020 

Hello Henry

I'm glad you find value in the video. Regarding corrections, I would be
cautious about referring to the teaching influence as 'scaffolding', or at
least to encourage exploring what is at play that the notion of scaffolding
may not normally include or connote. An important item that is absent from
your list is the relation of cognitive organisation (and its
re-organisation) to strategic sophistication in activity (including
construal), and that this is closely related to active orientation; the
role of the parent as an auxiliary mind providing, amongst other things a
meta-cognitive support aligned to the capabilities of the child but that
may go beyond the organisational structure of the child's form of
understanding, yielding, potentially, a harmonic coupling between the two.
On crises, I say that it seems that the upheaval aspect may be circumvented
with some children for some crises, but not the logical crisis in the sense
of a big change. It is not so much an 'option' as a facet of the child''s
experience (in relation to their development) as to whether the upheaval
and 'negative behaviour' become a necessary part of the child's
transitional behaviour. On what you paraphrase as "doing no harm" (my time
at comprehensive school), I would say that it is what the school does not
do that is of relevance here, i.e. that I found alternative resources to
encounter a 1st hand appreciation of cultural ideas through creative
activity and projects.

Anthony has recorded a subsequent video of our conversation pertaining to
his interest in developmental education. The concept of active orientation
is explored more in that video, with its relevance for developmental
education, so that might help with elaborating further what you are calling
scaffolding. I suspect there would be questions about that too, which would
require going further into the conceived organisation of cognition, the
relevance of meta-cognition and how this architecture is conceived of
socially.

Thanks for sharing your impressions.

Huw

On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 05:29, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:

> Corrections to the notes:
> David K. is David Kellogg, of course.
> In #3, “teachability” is my term, not Huw’s.
> Also in #3, it’s “relative achievement”. Vygotsky’s term.
> In #14, the two kinds of understanding are of the adult, not the child.
> Henry
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> *Subject: **Re: [Xmca-l] Huw, David, and Andy videos*
> *Date: *August 25, 2020 at 6:58:29 PM MDT
> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>
>
> Huw,
> It has taken me until now to find the time to view carefully your video. I
> think it was time well spent your answering Anthony’s question about your
> views on the application of Vygotsky to parenting. And I consider my time
> well spent taking notes to better understand your contribution. I hope
> anyone reading my notes will consider it time well spent. Please correct
> any misunderstandings on my part. Thanks to you and Anthony and to David K.
> for the reading from Vygotsky.
>
> First of all, I appreciate very much the pace of your delivery. I had the
> sense you were thinking in depth as you spoke, at a pace that very often I
> could follow and take notes without a lot of rewinding. In the order your
> present your ideas, here is what I especially appreciated:
> 1) Your construal of your thinking as Vygotsky inspired, rather than a
> strict adherence to Vygotsky’s writing
> 2) That you do not think that these ideas apply only to children’s
> development…I got the feeling, in fact, that you developed as an adult as
> you interacted with your children:)
> 3) You profiled the zone of proximal development as about “teachability”,
> that is the openness of the child to the scaffolding of the adult, rather
> than the level of intelligence. (Interestingly, I was just a reading from
> Vygotsky (see below) posted to the chat by David K., wherein Vygotsky calls
> this “realtive achievement. See paragraphs 21-24 especially.)
> 4) The role of the adult as observer/participant without obstructing what
> you call the “orientation” of the child, a term I have seen you use often
> in posts to the chat.
> 5) Encouraging the agency of the child, while helping them with a task. An
> example being picking up the child to turn on a light.
> 7) Your sense that crises are often optional, if you know how to provide
> options, rather than demands, and still get the child to bed.
> 8) At about 1:05:30, I lost the thread of something you were saying about
> how you might address differences between your two children in your
> scaffolding.
> 9) Interesting how you were the out-of-school parent, vis a vis the
> school-curriculum role of your wife. Furthermore, your sense, based on your
> own experience in comprehensive schooling in the UK, that schooling didn’t
> do you harm.
> 10) You described the process of your younger child learning to ride a
> bike with training wheels for two years, at which time he felt comfortable
> in riding without the training wheels. You let him decide when to make the
> change.
> 11) Your out-of-school scaffolding focused on projects and games, everyday
> activities, problems as food for thought to encourage independent thinking.
> 12) Covid-19 provided the conditions for alternative schooling from March
> to July. You did mornings, your wife did afternoons.
> 13) An interesting comment you make about “notational understanding” vs.
> “engaged understanding”, where the second kind of understanding facilitates
> the orientation of the child. (See #4 above.)
> 14) An interesting comment you make that children can sense something
> though not fully understand it, so that it is not “foreign” to them. You
> say this relates to the ZPD.
> 15) You spoke of a “theory of design” that relates to dialectal processes.
> Worth expanding upon I am sure.
> 16) You spoke of “leniency”  (yours) regarding how long your children
> might spend mastering a skill, sensing that “fluency” requires it and when
> the practice becoms trivial to the child, they will get bored with it and
> move on. (See #4 and #13 above.)
> 17) Finally, you noted that you didn’t cover metacognition, worth a talk
> in its own right.
>
> Well done!
> Henry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 15, 2020, at 11:15 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Anthony has posted a version with the synchronisation fixed here:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaOg1B_Y40Y__;!!Mih3wA!VaTqxqEztN1pgkmiMynmoGjQvIn8KXFE83ZkQwL5VGxWRxK4gxLoFQQlwkiA3yK2zcS3wQ$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaOg1B_Y40Y__;!!Mih3wA!Ss8AcSP9UnjylQTTtRt6rr9aKGripriFVVrDLHe0eSpAXNrDAlXv5ou9ncX7Q_6AMpWquA$>
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 23:32, John Cripps Clark <
> john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au> wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Anthony
>>
>>
>>
>> For these and all the videos you have created and curated. I know that I,
>> and many colleagues in the cultural-historical activity research community,
>> have found them illuminating.
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Anthony Barra <
>> anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
>> *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Date: *Saturday, 15 August 2020 at 3:19 am
>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Huw, David, and Andy videos
>>
>>
>>
>> Good afternoon,
>>
>>
>>
>> Those interested in our recently discussed "conscious awareness" passage
>> (Thinking and Speech, Ch. 6) may well enjoy these video close-readings from
>> David Kellogg and Andy Blunden.  I thank them both.
>>
>>    - "Distinguishing spontaneous, scientific, and pseudo- concepts"
>>    (short excerpt) - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/oyansz__;!!Mih3wA!VaTqxqEztN1pgkmiMynmoGjQvIn8KXFE83ZkQwL5VGxWRxK4gxLoFQQlwkiA3yJR2jTLAw$ 
>>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/oyansz__;!!Mih3wA!Ss8AcSP9UnjylQTTtRt6rr9aKGripriFVVrDLHe0eSpAXNrDAlXv5ou9ncX7Q_4DJGpenw$>
>>    - "Spinoza, Chess, and Other Magic Gateways" - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/fyansz__;!!Mih3wA!VaTqxqEztN1pgkmiMynmoGjQvIn8KXFE83ZkQwL5VGxWRxK4gxLoFQQlwkiA3yJYND1ATw$ 
>>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/fyansz__;!!Mih3wA!Ss8AcSP9UnjylQTTtRt6rr9aKGripriFVVrDLHe0eSpAXNrDAlXv5ou9ncX7Q_6JTuvvfw$>
>>    - "Andy Blunden on Conscious Awareness" - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/kyansz__;!!Mih3wA!VaTqxqEztN1pgkmiMynmoGjQvIn8KXFE83ZkQwL5VGxWRxK4gxLoFQQlwkiA3yIqgYykcw$ 
>>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/kyansz__;!!Mih3wA!Ss8AcSP9UnjylQTTtRt6rr9aKGripriFVVrDLHe0eSpAXNrDAlXv5ou9ncX7Q_47R4j8og$>
>>
>> And thank you as well to Huw Lloyd for taking on the very wide topic of
>> Vygotsky and parenting.
>>
>>    - "Huw Lloyd on Parenting and Vygotsky!" - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/syansz__;!!Mih3wA!VaTqxqEztN1pgkmiMynmoGjQvIn8KXFE83ZkQwL5VGxWRxK4gxLoFQQlwkiA3yKA4HyiKg$ 
>>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/syansz__;!!Mih3wA!Ss8AcSP9UnjylQTTtRt6rr9aKGripriFVVrDLHe0eSpAXNrDAlXv5ou9ncX7Q_427L8FHg$>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>>
>>
>> Anthony Barra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> * Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for
>> the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use,
>> reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you
>> have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments
>> immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. Deakin
>> University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error
>> or virus free.*
>>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> *Subject: **Re: [Xmca-l] Huw, David, and Andy videos*
> *Date: *August 25, 2020 at 6:58:29 PM MDT
> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>
>
> Huw,
> It has taken me until now to find the time to view carefully your video. I
> think it was time well spent your answering Anthony’s question about your
> views on the application of Vygotsky to parenting. And I consider my time
> well spent taking notes to better understand your contribution. I hope
> anyone reading my notes will consider it time well spent. Please correct
> any misunderstandings on my part. Thanks to you and Anthony and to David K.
> for the reading from Vygotsky.
>
> First of all, I appreciate very much the pace of your delivery. I had the
> sense you were thinking in depth as you spoke, at a pace that very often I
> could follow and take notes without a lot of rewinding. In the order your
> present your ideas, here is what I especially appreciated:
> 1) Your construal of your thinking as Vygotsky inspired, rather than a
> strict adherence to Vygotsky’s writing
> 2) That you do not think that these ideas apply only to children’s
> development…I got the feeling, in fact, that you developed as an adult as
> you interacted with your children:)
> 3) You profiled the zone of proximal development as about “teachability”,
> that is the openness of the child to the scaffolding of the adult, rather
> than the level of intelligence. (Interestingly, I was just a reading from
> Vygotsky (see below) posted to the chat by David K., wherein Vygotsky calls
> this “realtive achievement. See paragraphs 21-24 especially.)
> 4) The role of the adult as observer/participant without obstructing what
> you call the “orientation” of the child, a term I have seen you use often
> in posts to the chat.
> 5) Encouraging the agency of the child, while helping them with a task. An
> example being picking up the child to turn on a light.
> 7) Your sense that crises are often optional, if you know how to provide
> options, rather than demands, and still get the child to bed.
> 8) At about 1:05:30, I lost the thread of something you were saying about
> how you might address differences between your two children in your
> scaffolding.
> 9) Interesting how you were the out-of-school parent, vis a vis the
> school-curriculum role of your wife. Furthermore, your sense, based on your
> own experience in comprehensive schooling in the UK, that schooling didn’t
> do you harm.
> 10) You described the process of your younger child learning to ride a
> bike with training wheels for two years, at which time he felt comfortable
> in riding without the training wheels. You let him decide when to make the
> change.
> 11) Your out-of-school scaffolding focused on projects and games, everyday
> activities, problems as food for thought to encourage independent thinking.
> 12) Covid-19 provided the conditions for alternative schooling from March
> to July. You did mornings, your wife did afternoons.
> 13) An interesting comment you make about “notational understanding” vs.
> “engaged understanding”, where the second kind of understanding facilitates
> the orientation of the child. (See #4 above.)
> 14) An interesting comment you make that children can sense something
> though not fully understand it, so that it is not “foreign” to them. You
> say this relates to the ZPD.
> 15) You spoke of a “theory of design” that relates to dialectal processes.
> Worth expanding upon I am sure.
> 16) You spoke of “leniency”  (yours) regarding how long your children
> might spend mastering a skill, sensing that “fluency” requires it and when
> the practice becoms trivial to the child, they will get bored with it and
> move on. (See #4 and #13 above.)
> 17) Finally, you noted that you didn’t cover metacognition, worth a talk
> in its own right.
>
> Well done!
> Henry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 15, 2020, at 11:15 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Anthony has posted a version with the synchronisation fixed here:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaOg1B_Y40Y__;!!Mih3wA!VaTqxqEztN1pgkmiMynmoGjQvIn8KXFE83ZkQwL5VGxWRxK4gxLoFQQlwkiA3yK2zcS3wQ$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaOg1B_Y40Y__;!!Mih3wA!Ss8AcSP9UnjylQTTtRt6rr9aKGripriFVVrDLHe0eSpAXNrDAlXv5ou9ncX7Q_6AMpWquA$>
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 23:32, John Cripps Clark <
> john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au> wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Anthony
>>
>>
>>
>> For these and all the videos you have created and curated. I know that I,
>> and many colleagues in the cultural-historical activity research community,
>> have found them illuminating.
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Anthony Barra <
>> anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
>> *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Date: *Saturday, 15 August 2020 at 3:19 am
>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Huw, David, and Andy videos
>>
>>
>>
>> Good afternoon,
>>
>>
>>
>> Those interested in our recently discussed "conscious awareness" passage
>> (Thinking and Speech, Ch. 6) may well enjoy these video close-readings from
>> David Kellogg and Andy Blunden.  I thank them both.
>>
>>    - "Distinguishing spontaneous, scientific, and pseudo- concepts"
>>    (short excerpt) - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/oyansz__;!!Mih3wA!VaTqxqEztN1pgkmiMynmoGjQvIn8KXFE83ZkQwL5VGxWRxK4gxLoFQQlwkiA3yJR2jTLAw$ 
>>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/oyansz__;!!Mih3wA!Ss8AcSP9UnjylQTTtRt6rr9aKGripriFVVrDLHe0eSpAXNrDAlXv5ou9ncX7Q_4DJGpenw$>
>>    - "Spinoza, Chess, and Other Magic Gateways" - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/fyansz__;!!Mih3wA!VaTqxqEztN1pgkmiMynmoGjQvIn8KXFE83ZkQwL5VGxWRxK4gxLoFQQlwkiA3yJYND1ATw$ 
>>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/fyansz__;!!Mih3wA!Ss8AcSP9UnjylQTTtRt6rr9aKGripriFVVrDLHe0eSpAXNrDAlXv5ou9ncX7Q_6JTuvvfw$>
>>    - "Andy Blunden on Conscious Awareness" - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/kyansz__;!!Mih3wA!VaTqxqEztN1pgkmiMynmoGjQvIn8KXFE83ZkQwL5VGxWRxK4gxLoFQQlwkiA3yIqgYykcw$ 
>>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/kyansz__;!!Mih3wA!Ss8AcSP9UnjylQTTtRt6rr9aKGripriFVVrDLHe0eSpAXNrDAlXv5ou9ncX7Q_47R4j8og$>
>>
>> And thank you as well to Huw Lloyd for taking on the very wide topic of
>> Vygotsky and parenting.
>>
>>    - "Huw Lloyd on Parenting and Vygotsky!" - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/syansz__;!!Mih3wA!VaTqxqEztN1pgkmiMynmoGjQvIn8KXFE83ZkQwL5VGxWRxK4gxLoFQQlwkiA3yKA4HyiKg$ 
>>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/syansz__;!!Mih3wA!Ss8AcSP9UnjylQTTtRt6rr9aKGripriFVVrDLHe0eSpAXNrDAlXv5ou9ncX7Q_427L8FHg$>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>>
>>
>> Anthony Barra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> * Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for
>> the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use,
>> reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you
>> have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments
>> immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. Deakin
>> University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error
>> or virus free.*
>>
>
>
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200826/6cd2bcd9/attachment.html

More information about the xmca-l mailing list