[Xmca-l] Re: "conscious awareness enters through the gate" (a Participation Question)
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Sat Aug 15 18:34:50 PDT 2020
I fully agree with what Martin has said in this thread, but
I can add a little about the seemingly outrageous
conclusions drawn from the Uzbek experiments.
As I understand it, the expedition to Uzbekistan was in
1929, but it was in 1930 that Vygotsky worked with
colleagues of Deborin, who actually understood Hegel. From
this point forward Vygotsky changed what he understood to be
a "true concept" - i.e., "truly a concept." Hitherto,
following mainstream analytical science he had taken a
taxonomic category (i.e., like "large, green, wooden
blocks") to be the archetype of true concept.
In your own work, Mike, coming from the experience in
Liberia, you have made a detailed study of this taxonomic
type of thinking. Your discovered that (1) taxonomic
thinking and perception is a powerful form of activity, (2)
it is the type of thinking which is routinely inculcated in
"western" schooling practices, (3) it is generally not
taught in indigenous traditional communities, (4) it is not
easily acquired spontaneously. As was remarked, indigenous
communities in Uzbekistan or the Trobrian Island are rich in
true concepts, but poor in taxonomic reasoning.
I think of the reaction of the Uzbeks to Luria's questions
something like how someone on this list would react to a man
in a white coat asking us to look at four people, 3 of them
white Anglo-Saxon, one of them African-American, and asking
us to say which one of the people don't belong. Large,
class-based, bureaucratic societies rely on taxonomic
thinking to operate. I think that in indigenous communities
it is regarded as morally repulsive to act that way.
Just a little insight from Hegel, who says that subjection
of one's own will to one's own will ("turn the will on to
itself") is the path to free will. Equally, turning one's
thinking on one's own thinking is the path to conscious
control of one's own thinking, i.e., conscious awareness.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
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On 16/08/2020 11:01 am, mike cole wrote:
> Thanks, Martin, for all the time and trouble putting
> together those clarifying passages. As is often the case,
> the texts
> take several readings for me to appreciate. I experienced
> this phenomenon all the time during 5thD sessions
> where kids shared computer screens and negotiated turns;
> the kids had a difficult time explaining how they
> had done something. The kids in this case were often
> 10-12 which could be observed in their arguments
> about strategies. I hadn't thought about it that way.
> thanks. (Many untrained undergrads, on the other hand,
> got really into the activities, but retained a phenomenal
> ability to describe the interpersonal dynamics of the
> interactions). I had not thought of them as failing to
> introspect.
>
> I fully endorse fully the idea that
>
> Of course, one might find it objectionable that LSV might
> suggest that non-literate peoples might be unaware of
> their own thinking. But I agree with Andy, in such
> cultures there may well be systematic instruction in
> systems of concepts — legal, religious… — that would have
> the same effect as LSV says that school instruction does
> in the west.
>
> I posted the Hutchins article (thanks Andy) because it
> raises exactly this issue with some relevant data .
> The work of Megan Bang, Doug Medin and colleagues
> highlights the possibility of "real concepts" developing
> along that are actively discouraged by schooling.
>
> Mike
> As you know,, Piaget came around to something like a
> "cultural context" interpretation of cultural differences
> in formal operations, suggesting that they would
> occur in areas of dense expertise. All reasons why we
> need a bio/social-cultural/historical,interdisciplinary of
> human development. :-))
>
> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 5:17 PM Martin Packer
> <mpacker@cantab.net <mailto:mpacker@cantab.net>> wrote:
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Well you and I may differ on this. My interpretation
> is that in the passage that Anthony gave us, LSV is
> talking about the growing consciousness *of their own
> thinking* on the part of school-age children. (In
> Thought & Language he shifts a bit on whether this
> happens in middle childhood or adolescence, but that
> needn't concern us.) That is to say, he is writing
> about what he calls “introspection."
>
> As evidence for this interpretation let me cite a
> couple of other passages (these are from the excellent
> Kellogg translation) where I think the point is made
> more clearly:
>
> 100 "I make a knot. I do it consciously. I cannot,
> however, tell you exactly how I did it. My
> conscious act is unconscious, because my attention
> is focused on the act of the tying, but not on how
> I do it. Consciousness is always some piece
> of reality. The object of my consciousness is
> tying the knot, a knot, and what was happening to
> it but not those actions that I make when tying,
> not how I do it. But the object of consciousness
> can be just that - then it will be awareness.
> Awareness is an act of consciousness, the object
> of which is itself the very same activity of
> consciousness”
>
>
> 102 "Even Piaget's research showed that
> introspection does not begin to develop in
> any significant degree until school age. Further
> investigations have shown that the development
> of introspection in the school age contains
> something similar to what occurs in the
> development of the external perception and
> observation in the transition from infancy to
> early childhood. As is well known, the most
> important change in external perception of this
> period [i.e. infancy to early childhood] is that a
> child from a wordless and, consequently,
> meaningless perception, to a semantic, verbal and
> objective perception. The same can be said of
> introspection on the threshold of school age. The
> child is moving from mute introspection to speech
> and words. He develops an internal
> semantic perception of his own mental
> processes…. I realize that I can recall, i.e. I
> do recall the subjectivity of my own consciousness."
>
>
> 104 "By their very nature, spontaneous concepts
> include the fact that they are unconscious.
> Children know how they operate spontaneously but
> are not aware of them. This is what we saw in the
> children's concept of "because." Obviously,
> by themselves, spontaneous concepts need to be
> unconscious, because consideration is always
> directed to their objects, rather than to the act
> of thought which is grasping it.”
>
>
> 106 "only in a system [of concepts] can the
> concept become the object of awareness and only in
> a system can the child acquire volitional control
> [of concepts]."
>
>
> In his Lectures on Child Psychology LSV is very clear,
> in my view, that at each stage the child has
> consciousness of different aspects of the world and of
> their own psychological processes. For example:
>
> "In an infant, there is no intellectual
> perception: he perceives a room but does not
> separately perceive chairs, a table, etc.; he will
> perceive everything as an undivided whole in
> contrast to the adult, who sees figures against a
> background. How does a child perceive his own
> movements in early childhood? He is happy,
> unhappy, but does not know that he is happy, just
> as an infant when he is hungry does not know that
> he is hungry. There is a great difference between
> feeling hunger and knowing that I am hungry. In
> early childhood, the child does not know his
> own experiences…. Precisely as a three-year-old
> child discovers his relation to other people, a
> seven-year-old discovers the fact of his own
> experiences.” (p. 291)
>
>
> Of course, one might find it objectionable that LSV
> might suggest that non-literate peoples might be
> unaware of their own thinking. But I agree with Andy,
> in such cultures there may well be systematic
> instruction in systems of concepts — legal, religious…
> — that would have the same effect as LSV says that
> school instruction does in the west.
>
> Stay safe,
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>> On Aug 15, 2020, at 6:06 PM, mike cole
>> <mcole@ucsd.edu <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> I was not being ironic, David
>> If scientific concepts are required for conscious
>> awareness (as specified in the quotation I was asked
>> to respond to) and people who
>> have not been to school do not acquire Piagetian
>> concepts related to formal operations (for example)
>> or other measure of "thinking in
>> scientific concepts) if seems to follow that they
>> have not achieved conscious awareness.
>>
>> LSV writes about non-literate, indigenous, peoples
>> that they are capable of complexes, but not true
>> concepts (I think the use of the term.
>> "scientific" is not helpful here). Luria interprets
>> his data on self-consciousness that are a part of the
>> same monograph as his work on syllogisms,
>> classification, etc among Uzbekis who had experienced
>> various degrees of involvement in modern (e.g.
>> Russian) forms of life as evidence for
>> what might be termed "lack of conscious awareness I
>> am not sure."
>>
>> mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 3:31 PM David H Kirshner
>> <dkirsh@lsu.edu <mailto:dkirsh@lsu.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> Maybe I missed an ironic intention, Michael, but
>> on August 11 Anthony asked about the meaning of a
>> couple of paragraphs from /Thinking and Speech/.
>>
>> *Here is the passage in question*, from/Thinking
>> and Speech/, Ch. 6, pp. 190-1:
>>
>> "To perceive something in a different way means
>> to acquire new potentials for acting with respect
>> to it. At the chess board, to see differently is
>> to play differently. By generalizing the process
>> of activity itself, I acquire the potential for
>> new relationships with it. To speak crudely, it
>> is as if this process has been isolated from the
>> general activity of consciousness. I am conscious
>> of the fact that I remember. I make my own
>> remembering the object of consciousness. An
>> isolation arises here. In a certain sense, any
>> generalization or abstraction isolates its
>> object. This is why conscious awareness –
>> understood as generalization – leads directly to
>> mastery.
>>
>> /Thus, the foundation of conscious awareness is
>> the generalization or abstraction of the mental
>> processes, which leads to their mastery/.
>> Instruction has a decisive role in this process.
>> Scientific concepts have a unique relationship to
>> the object. This relationship is mediated through
>> other concepts that themselves have an internal
>> hierarchical system of interrelationships. It is
>> apparently in this domain of the scientific
>> concept that conscious awareness of concepts or
>> the generalization and mastery of concepts
>> emerges for the first time. And once a new
>> structure of generalization has arisen in one
>> sphere of thought, it can – like any structure –
>> be transferred without training to all remaining
>> domains of concepts and thought. Thus,/conscious
>> awareness enters through the gate opened up by
>> the scientific concept/."
>>
>> Mike’s reply, in total was:
>>
>> I understand that to mean that humans who have
>> not achieved scientific/real concepts do not have
>> conscious awareness.
>>
>> What am I missing?
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> David
>>
>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> *On
>> Behalf Of *Martin Packer
>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 15, 2020 4:36 PM
>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "conscious awareness
>> enters through the gate" (a Participation Question)
>>
>> David,
>>
>> Are you saying that either Mike Cole or Lev
>> Vygotsky, or both, are claiming that 5-year old
>> children (for example) lack conscious awareness
>> of the world they live in?
>>
>> Puzzled...
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 14, 2020, at 9:16 PM, David H Kirshner
>> <dkirsh@lsu.edu <mailto:dkirsh@lsu.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> Andy,
>>
>> That “any ‘actual’ concept is the
>> intersection or merging of both the
>> scientific and spontaneous path,” speaks to
>> their complementarity, making them akin to
>> Type 1 and Type 2 processing I referred to in
>> my post.
>>
>> But they’re also hierarchically related,
>> since according to Mike’s interpretation of a
>> Vygotsky’s passage cited by Anthony a few
>> days ago, “humans who have not achieved
>> scientific/real concepts do not have
>> conscious awareness.”
>>
>> I do not question Vygotsky’s genius. What I
>> do question is the coherence of the
>> interpretive frames that have evolved from
>> his work. As Michael observed in a recent
>> post, “like the writer he wanted to be he
>> [Vygotsky] used phrases and ideas less as
>> truths and more to move his narrative
>> forward.” What I always wonder in
>> eavesdropping on XMCA is whether the issues
>> we discuss are resolvable, or is the
>> theoretical backdrop to our conversation so
>> heterogeneous as to make the possibility of
>> resolution illusory.
>>
>> David
>>
>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>*On
>> Behalf Of*Andy Blunden
>> *Sent:*Friday, August 14, 2020 10:32 AM
>> *To:*xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: "conscious awareness
>> enters through the gate" (a Participation
>> Question)
>>
>> No David, as I said, the term "scientific
>> concept" as it is understood nowadays, tends
>> to mislead. The distinction for Vygotsky is
>> entirely, as you say,/developmental/, and it
>> is not a categorisation either (as in putting
>> things into boxes), and nothing to do with
>> "sophistication." "Scientific concept" refers
>> to the path of development that begins with
>> an abstract (decontextualised) concept
>> acquired through instruction in some more or
>> less formal institution. "Spontaneous
>> concept" refers to the path of development
>> which begins with everyday experience,
>> closely connected with immediate
>> sensori-motor interaction and perception,
>> i.e., it begins from the concrete, whereas
>> the "scientific" is beginning from the abstract.
>>
>> Any "actual" concept is the intersection or
>> merging of both the scientific and
>> spontaneous path. For example (1) everyday
>> life is full of ideas which have their source
>> in institutions, but have made their way out
>> of the institutional context into everyday
>> life. On the other hand, for example (2) any
>> scientific concept worth its salt has made
>> its way out of the classroom and become
>> connected with practice, like the
>> book-learning of the medical graduate who's
>> spent 6 months in A&E.
>>
>> I admit, this is not clear from Vygotsky's
>> prose. But here's the thing: when you're
>> reading a great thinker and what they're
>> saying seems silly, trying reading it more
>> generously, because there's probably a reason
>> this writer has gained the reputation of
>> being a great thinker.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Hegel for Social Movements
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!Mih3wA!XxSEPVIR0yRJgFaNSBm_i4WM3CddjlgSG_ngNcugdSCaXGC-tM-WRY9GIob6WVqti5Nn5Q*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7Ca67ad4b8e1054ad0908108d840677d4e*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637330160531086326*26sdata*3DklbbGOD961jWAJJ2y9AC4ITYXCnaDGFBvC0IbUJKVVs*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!Xj5wWxgfwuTDZiCehf_tnNDlXD6gP8BpwnjrYGS24qDQcMEd3gC6xhsU3N_JiNLOorai4A*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C4c9f97baa48249eab87b08d841637595*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637331242718851133&sdata=W*2FK*2BTbTCBGe1eDIjlq4*2BhdhmoNfNxW11ayTlKsOia*2FA*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKioqJSUqKioqKioqKiUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!WoFSvqRItZRFG-Wb6AmS0wx0inVUDXaV3gD2ZV6rpV81b-0KImklvCD1pGLY8v7_UV-zxA$>
>> Home Page
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>>
>> On 15/08/2020 1:14 am, David H Kirshner wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for your accessible example, Michael.
>>
>> Vygotsky’s scientific / spontaneous
>> distinction between types of concepts has
>> always struck me as such an unfortunate
>> solution to the problem of differential
>> sophistication in modes of reasoning. I’m
>> sure this problem must have deep roots in
>> classical and contemporary philosophy,
>> even as it is reflected in cognitive
>> psychology’s Dual Process Theory that at
>> its “theoretical core amounts to a
>> dichotomous view of two types of
>> processes…: type 1—intuitive, fast,
>> automatic, nonconscious, effortless,
>> contextualized, error-prone, and type
>> 2—reflective, slow, deliberate,
>> cogitative, effortful, decontextualized,
>> normatively correct” (Varga & Hamburger,
>> 2014). What externalizing this
>> distinction as different kinds of
>> cognitive products (this or that kind of
>> concept) seems to do is distract/detract
>> from the sociogenetic character of
>> development. Surely, a sociogenetic
>> approach seeks to interpret these
>> different forms of reasoning as
>> differential discursive practices,
>> embedded in different cultural contexts
>> (Scribner, Cole, etc.). But talking about
>> different kinds of concepts seems like
>> the wrong departure point for that journey.
>>
>> David
>>
>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>*On
>> Behalf Of*Glassman, Michael
>> *Sent:*Friday, August 14, 2020 7:03 AM
>> *To:*eXtended Mind, Culture,
>> Activity<xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: "conscious
>> awareness enters through the gate" (a
>> Participation Question)
>>
>> Hi Andy, Henry, Anna Lisa,
>>
>> Let me start by saying that this is
>> completely restricted to the way
>> conscious awareness is used in Thinking
>> and Speech. If it is use differently in
>> other places this perspective may be
>> wrong. To my mind (with the proviso that
>> my mind if often wrong) Vygotsky is using
>> the idea of conscious awareness for a
>> specific purpose. To differentiate the
>> role of spontaneous concepts with
>> non-spontaneous concepts. Spontaneous
>> concepts are based initially in affective
>> memory and they give energy and
>> motivation to many of our activities.
>> However we are not consciously aware of
>> them. To go back to chess, I am at the
>> pool and my friend comes up to me and
>> says “Chess?” I say yes. I have no
>> conscious awareness of the concept of
>> chess in my life, why I say yes so easily
>> why it may be a way to make a social
>> connection between me and my friend. It
>> is residue of my affective memory (I
>> don’t know how much Vygotsky was using
>> Ribot when making this argument). We are
>> playing chess and I remember that my
>> brother showed me the
>> non-spontaneous/scientific concept of the
>> bishop’s gambit. As this point in my life
>> I have to think about it and whether I
>> want to use it. I must summon the
>> intellectual functions of memory and
>> attention as I think about the use of the
>> bishop’s gambit. This then is conscious
>> awareness of the scientific concept. I
>> used the bishop’s gambit and win the game
>> and I applaud myself. I got home and tell
>> my brother, the bishop’s gambit was
>> great, thanks. I am mediating the
>> scientific concept of the bishop’s gambit
>> with my everyday concept of playing
>> chess. Voila, development!!!!
>>
>> I don’t know if Vygotsky uses conscious
>> awareness differently elsewhere.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>*On
>> Behalf Of*Andy Blunden
>> *Sent:*Thursday, August 13, 2020 11:51 PM
>> *To:*xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: "conscious
>> awareness enters through the gate" (a
>> Participation Question)
>>
>> Henry, my aim was just to introduce
>> Annalisa and whoever to the scientific
>> way that the terms "conscious awareness"
>> and "consciousness" are used in CHAT. I
>> say "scientific" in the sense that in
>> CHAT we have a system of concepts and
>> associated word meanings which have, if
>> you like, conventional meanings. There is
>> nothing wrong with "automatic and
>> controlled processing" and "ballistic
>> processing" but so far as I am aware
>> these terms were not in Vygotsky's
>> vocabulary. I could be wrong of course
>> and I am sure I will be rapidly corrected
>> if this is the case.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> IAngelus Novus
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus__;!!Mih3wA!XaZ0ldsk3LvHtURqQPa9pqhSzqJcTkfT9WpcH9iXCnnFdDWAkGk2rg5ikc9GFgnQRyK9kw$>The
>> Angel's View of History
>>
>> It is only in a social context that subjectivism
>> and objectivism, spiritualism and materialism,
>> activity and passivity cease to be antinomies, and
>> thus cease to exist as such antinomies. The
>> resolution of the theoretical contradictions is
>> possible only through practical means, only through
>> the practical energy of humans. (Marx, 1844).
>>
>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!S7CeeTQ7C4hGYUAH0f2TIKxj_E2KCNa2tgKZNqFEYsisUyaDy1z2TXdR6Lbav_Bdts86Kw$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XaZ0ldsk3LvHtURqQPa9pqhSzqJcTkfT9WpcH9iXCnnFdDWAkGk2rg5ikc9GFglySosYvA$>
>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!XaZ0ldsk3LvHtURqQPa9pqhSzqJcTkfT9WpcH9iXCnnFdDWAkGk2rg5ikc9GFgkzDUEbGA$>
>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu
>> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu/>.
>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu
>> <http://lchcautobio.ucsd.edu/>.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> IAngelus Novus
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus__;!!Mih3wA!VmZ0krlh0QfyuhwMsJyE-aiBoCi1ndjRzTpyPNrX8Gy6teUon9ROInGdGaVcwUDHx_O9PQ$>The
> Angel's View of History
>
> It is only in a social context that subjectivism and
> objectivism, spiritualism and materialism, activity and
> passivity cease to be antinomies, and thus cease to
> exist as such antinomies. The resolution of the
> theoretical contradictions is possible only through
> practical means, only through the practical energy of
> humans. (Marx, 1844).
>
> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!S7CeeTQ7C4hGYUAH0f2TIKxj_E2KCNa2tgKZNqFEYsisUyaDy1z2TXdR6Lbav_Bdts86Kw$
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VmZ0krlh0QfyuhwMsJyE-aiBoCi1ndjRzTpyPNrX8Gy6teUon9ROInGdGaVcwUBrBPYaqg$>
> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!VmZ0krlh0QfyuhwMsJyE-aiBoCi1ndjRzTpyPNrX8Gy6teUon9ROInGdGaVcwUCHBgNpHQ$>
> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu
> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>.
> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu
> <http://lchcautobio.ucsd.edu>.
>
>
>
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