[Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?

[mike cole]

You raise a point that links to Mary's description, Martin

*As for making visible the virus and the illness, of course the charts make
visible aspects of infection.  *

I think that the ability to glance at a chart and interpret it is likely to
be a semiotic means not readily available to
those without education to interpret them. Or to rely on the source of
information from this they come -- A government
they have lost trust in.

Professional vision, so to speak.


mike

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 12:41 PM Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net> wrote:

> Thanks to Mary and David for providing ‘local' accounts…
>
> To take a shot at Mary’s question, Do we need governments to set up the
> conditions for the actions of individuals? - it seems that David’s answer
> is, we don't when there is a 'flexible and cooperative mindset,’ perhaps
> forged in previous shared difficulties. Perhaps that applies to S. Korea as
> well.
>
> I suppose it should not be surprising that the most individualistic
> nations, the UK and US, seem to be having the greatest difficulty in coming
> together to face the situation. But even there, between individual and
> national government are a set of institutions that I think could play an
> important role in guiding people’s actions.
>
> Some simple examples that come to mind. Here, banks are expanding online
> services and dropping charges for online transfers, thus removing a
> barrier, albeit small, to providing financial assistance. Stores are
> creating symbolic markers that make visible safer interpersonal distance —
> simple things like tape on the floor. I don’t know what stance the various
> religious institutions are taking. These are small steps, but they help
> nudge individual actions in the right direction.
>
> As for making visible the virus and the illness, of course the charts make
> visible aspects of infection. Tests, when they are available, create
> markers of infection and, hopefully, immunity. I worry that the media’s
> focus on the extremely ill may not encourage people to make sensible
> choices.
>
> One of the problems with staying at home is that while avoiding direct
> contact is healthy, it also prevents first-hand experience of the illness
> for most people.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 26, 2020, at 3:40 AM, Mary van der Riet <VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za>
> wrote:
>
> I am struck in all of these conversations of the similarities with the HIV
> pandemic . We face these issues daily in the Southern African region (the
> highest prevalence of HIV globally).
> We say 'it depends on us', and revert to information sharing, and
> dependence on cognitive shifts and adaptations (all of the old behaviour
> change theories  Theory of Reasoned Action; Health Belief Models)- see the
> risk, know what the risk means, know how to prevent it, and make changes to
> your behaviour in order to protect yourself.
> All of this is relevant for the COVID 10 pandemic, and much of it is not
> working. We as educated adults see the risk, know the risk, know how to
> protect ourselves (to the degree that scientists have informed us, and to
> the degree that science knows about the transmission) and yet it is really
> hard to change behaviour, to 'believe' that this is real
>
> And what does it mean for action? It means people don't social distance,
> don't use masks, see themselves as infallible etc.
>
> The origin of actions/activity do/does not reside in cognition...we know
> that from Activity theory, CHAT, etc.
>
> In the HIV pandemic in SA, there are still people who believe that you are
> fine if you cant see the symptoms (loss of weight, skin conditions,
> diarrohea - a fallacy by the way). A taxi driver said he would rather have
> HIV than Covid 19 because he could 'see'  that someone was or was not HIV
> positive, but he is scared of Covid 19 because he cant 'see' it. Same
> discourse, same consequences.
> Then there was a period in SA where HIV public health messaging was about
> showing coffins, and symbols of death to try to get people to take in the
> seriousness of it all. Do we find this now? are those more directly
> infected (someone in their family, seeing someone ill with Covid 19 -
> doctors, nurses)- more convinced about the nature of the problem). Perhaps
> not for some in the USA protesting this viral hoax. So, what changes
> behaviour?
>
> The question is the same - what is the motive that drives the health
> protection actions of individuals? The origin of behaviour is not
> individual cognition.
>
> Uganda was seen to have been so effective in reducing HIV incidence
> because it made HIV a notifiable disease.  Is this draconian? Does it
> infringe on individual rights? [In SA we have not done that, we have a
> constitutional right to control and manage and keep private our HIV status;
> AND we have huge levels of stigma (extreme fear of going for an HIV test in
> a university context because people will 'see you there, and think you are
> HIV positive). At the same time, young women at universities are afraid of
> unplanned pregnancies because they are visible, (unlike HIV), and evidence
> of sexual activity. So, contradictions and tensions in practices around
> sexual activity in the context of 'risk' or vulnerability to HIV.]
> Governments who can instruct people how to behave (ie take the
> responsibility away from the individual) seem to have had more control over
> the spread of the virus (SA during lockdown). So a rule or a law which
> governs individual actions (and creating the context for an action,
> prescribing what might be 'afforded' in the context) might be more
> effective that the individual 'making a decision'
> If condom use amongst young people is not a 'norm' it is difficult for one
> person to engage with condom use.
>
> Do we need governments to set up the conditions for the actions of
> individuals?
>
> Mary
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Mary van der Riet (Phd), **Associate Professor*
> *Discipline of Psychology, **School of Applied Human Sciences, College of
> Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa*
> *email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za <vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za>
>   **tel: +27 33 260 6163*
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of Julian Williams <julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk>
> *Sent:* Saturday, 25 April 2020 20:24
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>
> Martin, David
>
> Yes a lot depends... on ‘us’.
>
> Check out the report, where you can see how much was ‘predicted’ years
> ago, even the possible public outrage ensuing government failures ; but yes
> my decisive, main point was not to predict, but to ACT.
>
> David I agree the bioscience issues are important, but bear in mind that
> our sloppy public health systems globally ( eg with wild life markets)
> expose humanity to many new viruses ( they estimate 2-4 new viruses per
> year) - our relations and actions shape this threat.
>
> Then also not just immediately, but imaginatively, to play with models
> (and not just those reductive epidemiologists’ ‘predictions’) .. but to
> imagineer a world subject that can act in future to tackle essentially
> GLOBAL challenges.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Julian
>
> On 25 Apr 2020, at 18:10, Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net> wrote:
>
> That’s the problem with predicting - it all depends!  :)
>
> Yes, coronavirus may become endemic, like flu or the common cold or
> something worse.
>
> Or a vaccine may be developed.
>
> Or if 4 in 5 are somehow naturally resistant, and if most of the 1 in 5
> who become infected develop immunity as a result, the incidence of covid
> could drop dramatically.
>
> Or we could all drink disinfectant.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> On Apr 25, 2020, at 11:49 AM, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
>
> It is possible that the virus is eradicated, like SARS was, but that’s
> increasingly unlikely.
> More likely is that “2019-nCoV joins the four coronaviruses now
> circulating in people. ‘I can imagine a scenario where this becomes a fifth
> endemic human coronavirus,’ said Stephen Morse of Columbia University’s
> Mailman School of Public Health, an epidemiologist and expert on emerging
> infectious diseases.”
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/04/two-scenarios-if-new-coronavirus-isnt-contained/__;!!Mih3wA!SF3XoFGPv9cubzgCl6HS4nBy2aPj9S3CBpxHFJbZIkIXynb87HoI1BKhtq12JRYmSfSjJQ$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/6hDpCO796QhAZnyAIvt4ky?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPcPjQKww$>
>
> The fact that such a large proportion of people who contract the virus are
> asymptomatic make this one very hard to contain. Of course, the possibility
> of a vaccine would greatly reduce its human toll.
>
> David
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
> Behalf Of *Martin Packer
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 25, 2020 11:14 AM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>
> David,
>
> There is talk about the possible eradication of the virus in Australia and
> New Zealand, from what I have read. Eradication is difficult when no one
> has resistance, but not impossible. Other virus infections have been
> eradicated, as far as one can tell, such as smallpox.
>
> In Wuhan, where the infections started, which is a city of around 11
> million people, less that 70,000 cases were reported. Even if that is
> vastly underreported by a factor of 10 it is less than 10%.  And studies in
> California suggest that only 1 in 5 have been infected, of whom 60% have
> not experienced any symptoms. Only around 5% need hospitalization.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> On Apr 25, 2020, at 10:46 AM, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
>
> Martin,
> The scenario you sketched out is what I’d thought would/could happen, but
> the epidemiologists don’t ever talk about eradicating the virus, they just
> talk about slowing the spread so as not to overwhelm health care
> facilities. Eventually, everyone who can get it will get it. So a
> generation of older and weaker people will be adversely affected, many
> dying. It’s only in the next generation when most people have gotten it
> young that it will fade into the background, like the common cold.
> David
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
> Behalf Of *Martin Packer
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 25, 2020 7:42 AM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>
> Julian,
>
> If no efforts are made to contain a virus it will move through a
> population in a single wave, infecting many people and then disappearing as
> no more potential hosts are available.
>
> If efforts to contain it — lockdown — are adequate there will be a single
> much smaller wave, followed again by elimination as hosts are not available.
>
> If containment is not effective — if people don’t isolate sufficiently —
> there may be a second wave when the containment is reduced. Or the first
> wave may not be controlled.
>
> As you say, each country is responding differently. Australia seems close
> to eliminating the virus after a single wave. The US and UK are somewhere
> between starting a second wave and still being in a poorly controlled first
> wave. Colombia seems to be still moving up its first wave.
>
> The behavior of a virus can be modeled, but only on the basis of
> assumptions about how people are going to behave. Since we cannot predict
> this behavior, we cannot even predict how the virus will or will not
> spread, let alone the political, economic and social consequences.
>
> To say this is not to be pessimistic; pessimism would be predicting a dire
> outcome. Rather, it highlights that the outcome lies in all our hands.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:43 AM, Julian Williams <
> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Andy/Greg
>
> Each nation state appears to be ‘playing’ the pandemic in different ways
> (eg China, Italy, Australia, NZ, Sweden, UK, USA,… check out attached
> report which comes from https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pandemic.internationalsos.com/2019-ncov__;!!Mih3wA!SF3XoFGPv9cubzgCl6HS4nBy2aPj9S3CBpxHFJbZIkIXynb87HoI1BKhtq12JRarhC-tnQ$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/WKreCQ1LgVt6lOy6UkWzra?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPcULkNqg$>
>     I get one of these reports every few days)  while sometimes looking
> to other countries to see how their numbers are growing/falling (and mostly
> making a damn poor job of it).
>
> Before this all got going, the scientists already had a pretty good idea
> how a pandemic works, and even what needed to be done to prepare for it:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-uk-ministers-were-warned-last-year-of-risks-of-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!SF3XoFGPv9cubzgCl6HS4nBy2aPj9S3CBpxHFJbZIkIXynb87HoI1BKhtq12JRYah4epQg$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/_lv0CVmZn1Flk3RlUkGoAn?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbM-6N4beg$>
> And now we know a bit more than we did then.
>
> There is a prediction/warning there about a number of pandemic waves…
>
> In the second ‘wave’, we – the world subject-in-formation may have learnt
> more, maybe there will be fewer deaths?  Maybe we will rescue WHO, maybe
> not (I won’t predict). But maybe the science community will be paying
> serious attention, and especially to its duty to the ‘public good’. But
> there are some contradictory signs. In my own university we seem to be
> about to enter a new austerity, (implemented from the top by a failing
> leadership, led by a true academic, bio scientist no less!)
>
> What is clear is that the ‘public’ and its social movements are key to
> forcing each government to act, and that in almost all cases our leaders
> and rulers have followed along reluctantly – even while the science and the
> pandemic plan was there.
>
> In the third and subsequent waves? I agree it’s not predictable: the
> outcomes will depend entirely on all of ‘us’.
>
> And in the next ‘big one’, the climate collapse? Maybe all this pandemic
> ‘play’ will have helped prepare us, we maybe will learn how to build the
> institutions, policies etc for the world’s ‘public good’ in time. I still
> have hope.
>
> I use Vygotsky-Leontiev’s idea of ‘play’ as the leading activity of the
> pre-schooler, as I find it complements the notion of world perezhivanie –
> yes, we are experiencing trauma and that drives activity to overcome, etc,
> but also in this play we are acting, reflecting, and always – above all -
> imagining and re-imagining (modelling etc) our world future.
>
> Julian
>
>
>
> *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Andy Blunden <
> andyb@marxists.org>
> *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Date: *Saturday, 25 April 2020 at 02:08
> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>
> Greg, the word is polysemic, as Mike said, but I agree with Michael that
> *perezhivaniya* are essentially collective experiences. As I say in the
> article, that COVID will be experienced differently in different countries,
> by different classes and social groups is an important part of this
> process. It does not detract it from its being a single experience.
> Huw, a "world subject" is emergent at this moment. It is implicit or
> "in-itself" but I look forward to the appearance of such a world subject,
> though who know how long and through what traumas we will pass before it is
> an actuality. Like WW2, the COVID pandemic part of its birth process.
>
>    - https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm__;!!Mih3wA!SF3XoFGPv9cubzgCl6HS4nBy2aPj9S3CBpxHFJbZIkIXynb87HoI1BKhtq12JRb_YQKPUg$ ,
>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/UMhMCX6Vp3CnD2znTM_08r?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbNMRB4ufg$>
>     Notes, links, excerpts, 2009
>    -
>    https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Blunden_article*response.pdf__;Kw!!Mih3wA!SF3XoFGPv9cubzgCl6HS4nBy2aPj9S3CBpxHFJbZIkIXynb87HoI1BKhtq12JRbI7xTHpg$ 
>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/gV6QCZ4Xr5CM8lpMcJR6Bn?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPSO2hngg$>,
>    MCA article 2016
>    -
>    https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Coronavirus-pandemic.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!SF3XoFGPv9cubzgCl6HS4nBy2aPj9S3CBpxHFJbZIkIXynb87HoI1BKhtq12JRYuZSeZuw$ 
>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/2Pc6C2RJD6SkZ19kF8rfOj?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbOv5tCMuA$>
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/KuihC3lJV7Cm9qEmTzYQ1D?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPsrc8S0g$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/YmbqC48KGgtJ9gvJuLtaRJ?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPIPBoc2g$>
> On 25/04/2020 4:01 am, Greg Thompson wrote:
>
> I'm wondering about Andy's suggestion that covid-19 is a (or maybe "is
> creating a"?) world perezhivanie. That seems a really rich suggestion but
> I'm not sure how many of us on the list really understand what he means by
> this.
>
> Andy tends to just tell me to go read more and so I'm wondering if someone
> else might be willing to take a stab at explaining what he might mean.
>
> Also, as a critical intervention, I am wondering whether covid-19 is the
> "same" for everyone. We have folks in the U.S. who think it is basically
> just a typical flu that has been turned into a political tool to attack the
> current president. Or does that not matter for perezhivanie?
>
> (and just to be clear, my question is not whether or not this is true or
> right or beautiful to think this way; my question is whether or not this is
> how people are actually experiencing the world since I assume that this is
> what perezhivanie is supposed to be "getting at". Or am I misunderstanding
> perezhivanie?)
>
> So is there really a shared perezhivanie here?
> (Is The Problem of Age the place to look for answers?)
>
> But if no one wants to take this up (perhaps too much ink has been spilt
> over perezhivanie?), that's fine too.
>
> Cheers,
> greg
>
>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!SF3XoFGPv9cubzgCl6HS4nBy2aPj9S3CBpxHFJbZIkIXynb87HoI1BKhtq12JRYCQG0Z0w$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/wXeAC66VKkCo0zBohE9bWA?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbO7_a8clQ$>
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!SF3XoFGPv9cubzgCl6HS4nBy2aPj9S3CBpxHFJbZIkIXynb87HoI1BKhtq12JRZQPT5bMA$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/zsL0C8qYKmUjP1KjfZu5le?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbNtZXrGEg$>
>
> <Executive Summary 15 APRIL 2020 FINAL[1].docx>
>
>
>

-- 

the creation of utopias – and their exhaustive criticism – is the proper
and distinctive method of sociology.  H.G.Wells

---------------------------------------------------
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