[Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?

Sun Apr 26 12:38:21 PDT 2020

Thanks to Mary and David for providing ‘local' accounts…

To take a shot at Mary’s question, Do we need governments to set up the conditions for the actions of individuals? - it seems that David’s answer is, we don't when there is a 'flexible and cooperative mindset,’ perhaps forged in previous shared difficulties. Perhaps that applies to S. Korea as well.

I suppose it should not be surprising that the most individualistic nations, the UK and US, seem to be having the greatest difficulty in coming together to face the situation. But even there, between individual and national government are a set of institutions that I think could play an important role in guiding people’s actions.

Some simple examples that come to mind. Here, banks are expanding online services and dropping charges for online transfers, thus removing a barrier, albeit small, to providing financial assistance. Stores are creating symbolic markers that make visible safer interpersonal distance — simple things like tape on the floor. I don’t know what stance the various religious institutions are taking. These are small steps, but they help nudge individual actions in the right direction. 

As for making visible the virus and the illness, of course the charts make visible aspects of infection. Tests, when they are available, create markers of infection and, hopefully, immunity. I worry that the media’s focus on the extremely ill may not encourage people to make sensible choices. 

One of the problems with staying at home is that while avoiding direct contact is healthy, it also prevents first-hand experience of the illness for most people. 

Martin

> On Apr 26, 2020, at 3:40 AM, Mary van der Riet <VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za> wrote:
> 
> I am struck in all of these conversations of the similarities with the HIV pandemic . We face these issues daily in the Southern African region (the highest prevalence of HIV globally). 
> We say 'it depends on us', and revert to information sharing, and dependence on cognitive shifts and adaptations (all of the old behaviour change theories  Theory of Reasoned Action; Health Belief Models)- see the risk, know what the risk means, know how to prevent it, and make changes to your behaviour in order to protect yourself.
> All of this is relevant for the COVID 10 pandemic, and much of it is not working. We as educated adults see the risk, know the risk, know how to protect ourselves (to the degree that scientists have informed us, and to the degree that science knows about the transmission) and yet it is really hard to change behaviour, to 'believe' that this is real
> 
> And what does it mean for action? It means people don't social distance, don't use masks, see themselves as infallible etc.
> 
> The origin of actions/activity do/does not reside in cognition...we know that from Activity theory, CHAT, etc.
> 
> In the HIV pandemic in SA, there are still people who believe that you are fine if you cant see the symptoms (loss of weight, skin conditions, diarrohea - a fallacy by the way). A taxi driver said he would rather have HIV than Covid 19 because he could 'see'  that someone was or was not HIV positive, but he is scared of Covid 19 because he cant 'see' it. Same discourse, same consequences.
> Then there was a period in SA where HIV public health messaging was about showing coffins, and symbols of death to try to get people to take in the seriousness of it all. Do we find this now? are those more directly infected (someone in their family, seeing someone ill with Covid 19 - doctors, nurses)- more convinced about the nature of the problem). Perhaps not for some in the USA protesting this viral hoax. So, what changes behaviour?
> 
> The question is the same - what is the motive that drives the health protection actions of individuals? The origin of behaviour is not individual cognition.
> 
> Uganda was seen to have been so effective in reducing HIV incidence because it made HIV a notifiable disease.  Is this draconian? Does it infringe on individual rights? [In SA we have not done that, we have a constitutional right to control and manage and keep private our HIV status; AND we have huge levels of stigma (extreme fear of going for an HIV test in a university context because people will 'see you there, and think you are HIV positive). At the same time, young women at universities are afraid of unplanned pregnancies because they are visible, (unlike HIV), and evidence of sexual activity. So, contradictions and tensions in practices around sexual activity in the context of 'risk' or vulnerability to HIV.] Governments who can instruct people how to behave (ie take the responsibility away from the individual) seem to have had more control over the spread of the virus (SA during lockdown). So a rule or a law which governs individual actions (and creating the context for an action, prescribing what might be 'afforded' in the context) might be more effective that the individual 'making a decision'
> If condom use amongst young people is not a 'norm' it is difficult for one person to engage with condom use.
> 
> Do we need governments to set up the conditions for the actions of individuals?
> 
> Mary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor
> Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa
> email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za <mailto:vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za>                      tel: +27 33 260 6163
> 
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of Julian Williams <julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk <mailto:julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk>>
> Sent: Saturday, 25 April 2020 20:24
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>  
> Martin, David
> 
> Yes a lot depends... on ‘us’.
> 
> Check out the report, where you can see how much was ‘predicted’ years ago, even the possible public outrage ensuing government failures ; but yes my decisive, main point was not to predict, but to ACT.
> 
> David I agree the bioscience issues are important, but bear in mind that our sloppy public health systems globally ( eg with wild life markets) expose humanity to many new viruses ( they estimate 2-4 new viruses per year) - our relations and actions shape this threat.
> 
> Then also not just immediately, but imaginatively, to play with models (and not just those reductive epidemiologists’ ‘predictions’) .. but to imagineer a world subject that can act in future to tackle essentially GLOBAL challenges.
> 
> Best wishes 
> 
> Julian 
> 
> On 25 Apr 2020, at 18:10, Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net <mailto:mpacker@cantab.net>> wrote:
> 
>> That’s the problem with predicting - it all depends!  :)
>> 
>> Yes, coronavirus may become endemic, like flu or the common cold or something worse.
>> 
>> Or a vaccine may be developed.
>> 
>> Or if 4 in 5 are somehow naturally resistant, and if most of the 1 in 5 who become infected develop immunity as a result, the incidence of covid could drop dramatically. 
>> 
>> Or we could all drink disinfectant. 
>> 
>> Martin
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 25, 2020, at 11:49 AM, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu <mailto:dkirsh@lsu.edu>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> It is possible that the virus is eradicated, like SARS was, but that’s increasingly unlikely.
>>> More likely is that “2019-nCoV joins the four coronaviruses now circulating in people. ‘I can imagine a scenario where this becomes a fifth endemic human coronavirus,’ said Stephen Morse of Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health, an epidemiologist and expert on emerging infectious diseases.”
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/04/two-scenarios-if-new-coronavirus-isnt-contained/__;!!Mih3wA!WegGIWWaMAIh3yyt26ygYaUiDasrQKMAOuXxd49JAYH-02wxXsEDbYRtzt-Z_xL74wTJew$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/6hDpCO796QhAZnyAIvt4ky?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPcPjQKww$>
>>>  
>>> The fact that such a large proportion of people who contract the virus are asymptomatic make this one very hard to contain. Of course, the possibility of a vaccine would greatly reduce its human toll.
>>>  
>>> David
>>>  
>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> On Behalf Of Martin Packer
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 11:14 AM
>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>>>  
>>> David,
>>>  
>>> There is talk about the possible eradication of the virus in Australia and New Zealand, from what I have read. Eradication is difficult when no one has resistance, but not impossible. Other virus infections have been eradicated, as far as one can tell, such as smallpox.
>>>  
>>> In Wuhan, where the infections started, which is a city of around 11 million people, less that 70,000 cases were reported. Even if that is vastly underreported by a factor of 10 it is less than 10%.  And studies in California suggest that only 1 in 5 have been infected, of whom 60% have not experienced any symptoms. Only around 5% need hospitalization.
>>>  
>>> Martin
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Apr 25, 2020, at 10:46 AM, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu <mailto:dkirsh@lsu.edu>> wrote:
>>>  
>>> Martin,
>>> The scenario you sketched out is what I’d thought would/could happen, but the epidemiologists don’t ever talk about eradicating the virus, they just talk about slowing the spread so as not to overwhelm health care facilities. Eventually, everyone who can get it will get it. So a generation of older and weaker people will be adversely affected, many dying. It’s only in the next generation when most people have gotten it young that it will fade into the background, like the common cold. 
>>> David
>>>  
>>>  
>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> On Behalf Of Martin Packer
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 7:42 AM
>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>>>  
>>> Julian,
>>>  
>>> If no efforts are made to contain a virus it will move through a population in a single wave, infecting many people and then disappearing as no more potential hosts are available.
>>>  
>>> If efforts to contain it — lockdown — are adequate there will be a single much smaller wave, followed again by elimination as hosts are not available.
>>>  
>>> If containment is not effective — if people don’t isolate sufficiently — there may be a second wave when the containment is reduced. Or the first wave may not be controlled.
>>>  
>>> As you say, each country is responding differently. Australia seems close to eliminating the virus after a single wave. The US and UK are somewhere between starting a second wave and still being in a poorly controlled first wave. Colombia seems to be still moving up its first wave.
>>>  
>>> The behavior of a virus can be modeled, but only on the basis of assumptions about how people are going to behave. Since we cannot predict this behavior, we cannot even predict how the virus will or will not spread, let alone the political, economic and social consequences.
>>>  
>>> To say this is not to be pessimistic; pessimism would be predicting a dire outcome. Rather, it highlights that the outcome lies in all our hands. 
>>>  
>>> Martin
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:43 AM, Julian Williams <julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk <mailto:julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>>  
>>> Andy/Greg
>>>  
>>> Each nation state appears to be ‘playing’ the pandemic in different ways (eg China, Italy, Australia, NZ, Sweden, UK, USA,… check out attached report which comes from https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pandemic.internationalsos.com/2019-ncov__;!!Mih3wA!WegGIWWaMAIh3yyt26ygYaUiDasrQKMAOuXxd49JAYH-02wxXsEDbYRtzt-Z_xLWxdJmGA$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/WKreCQ1LgVt6lOy6UkWzra?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPcULkNqg$>    I get one of these reports every few days)  while sometimes looking to other countries to see how their numbers are growing/falling (and mostly making a damn poor job of it).
>>>  
>>> Before this all got going, the scientists already had a pretty good idea how a pandemic works, and even what needed to be done to prepare for it: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-uk-ministers-were-warned-last-year-of-risks-of-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!WegGIWWaMAIh3yyt26ygYaUiDasrQKMAOuXxd49JAYH-02wxXsEDbYRtzt-Z_xLgT76yIQ$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/_lv0CVmZn1Flk3RlUkGoAn?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbM-6N4beg$>
>>> And now we know a bit more than we did then.
>>>  
>>> There is a prediction/warning there about a number of pandemic waves…
>>>  
>>> In the second ‘wave’, we – the world subject-in-formation may have learnt more, maybe there will be fewer deaths?  Maybe we will rescue WHO, maybe not (I won’t predict). But maybe the science community will be paying serious attention, and especially to its duty to the ‘public good’. But there are some contradictory signs. In my own university we seem to be about to enter a new austerity, (implemented from the top by a failing leadership, led by a true academic, bio scientist no less!)  
>>>  
>>> What is clear is that the ‘public’ and its social movements are key to forcing each government to act, and that in almost all cases our leaders and rulers have followed along reluctantly – even while the science and the pandemic plan was there.
>>>  
>>> In the third and subsequent waves? I agree it’s not predictable: the outcomes will depend entirely on all of ‘us’.
>>>  
>>> And in the next ‘big one’, the climate collapse? Maybe all this pandemic ‘play’ will have helped prepare us, we maybe will learn how to build the institutions, policies etc for the world’s ‘public good’ in time. I still have hope.
>>>  
>>> I use Vygotsky-Leontiev’s idea of ‘play’ as the leading activity of the pre-schooler, as I find it complements the notion of world perezhivanie – yes, we are experiencing trauma and that drives activity to overcome, etc, but also in this play we are acting, reflecting, and always – above all - imagining and re-imagining (modelling etc) our world future.
>>>  
>>> Julian
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> From: <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
>>> Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> Date: Saturday, 25 April 2020 at 02:08
>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>>>  
>>> Greg, the word is polysemic, as Mike said, but I agree with Michael that perezhivaniya are essentially collective experiences. As I say in the article, that COVID will be experienced differently in different countries, by different classes and social groups is an important part of this process. It does not detract it from its being a single experience.
>>> Huw, a "world subject" is emergent at this moment. It is implicit or "in-itself" but I look forward to the appearance of such a world subject, though who know how long and through what traumas we will pass before it is an actuality. Like WW2, the COVID pandemic part of its birth process.
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm__;!!Mih3wA!WegGIWWaMAIh3yyt26ygYaUiDasrQKMAOuXxd49JAYH-02wxXsEDbYRtzt-Z_xLvTV2NHw$ , <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/UMhMCX6Vp3CnD2znTM_08r?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbNMRB4ufg$> Notes, links, excerpts, 2009 
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Blunden_article*response.pdf__;Kw!!Mih3wA!WegGIWWaMAIh3yyt26ygYaUiDasrQKMAOuXxd49JAYH-02wxXsEDbYRtzt-Z_xJeJrc8sw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/gV6QCZ4Xr5CM8lpMcJR6Bn?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPSO2hngg$>, MCA article 2016 
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Coronavirus-pandemic.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!WegGIWWaMAIh3yyt26ygYaUiDasrQKMAOuXxd49JAYH-02wxXsEDbYRtzt-Z_xIuI3pE0g$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/2Pc6C2RJD6SkZ19kF8rfOj?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbOv5tCMuA$>
>>> Andy
>>>  
>>> Andy Blunden
>>> Hegel for Social Movements <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/KuihC3lJV7Cm9qEmTzYQ1D?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPsrc8S0g$>
>>> Home Page <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/YmbqC48KGgtJ9gvJuLtaRJ?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPIPBoc2g$>
>>> On 25/04/2020 4:01 am, Greg Thompson wrote:
>>> I'm wondering about Andy's suggestion that covid-19 is a (or maybe "is creating a"?) world perezhivanie. That seems a really rich suggestion but I'm not sure how many of us on the list really understand what he means by this.
>>>  
>>> Andy tends to just tell me to go read more and so I'm wondering if someone else might be willing to take a stab at explaining what he might mean.
>>>  
>>> Also, as a critical intervention, I am wondering whether covid-19 is the "same" for everyone. We have folks in the U.S. who think it is basically just a typical flu that has been turned into a political tool to attack the current president. Or does that not matter for perezhivanie?
>>>  
>>> (and just to be clear, my question is not whether or not this is true or right or beautiful to think this way; my question is whether or not this is how people are actually experiencing the world since I assume that this is what perezhivanie is supposed to be "getting at". Or am I misunderstanding perezhivanie?)
>>>  
>>> So is there really a shared perezhivanie here?
>>> (Is The Problem of Age the place to look for answers?)
>>>  
>>> But if no one wants to take this up (perhaps too much ink has been spilt over perezhivanie?), that's fine too.
>>>  
>>> Cheers,
>>> greg
>>>  
>>>  
>>> -- 
>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>> Assistant Professor
>>> Department of Anthropology
>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>> Brigham Young University
>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!WegGIWWaMAIh3yyt26ygYaUiDasrQKMAOuXxd49JAYH-02wxXsEDbYRtzt-Z_xKVEl32NQ$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/wXeAC66VKkCo0zBohE9bWA?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbO7_a8clQ$> 
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!WegGIWWaMAIh3yyt26ygYaUiDasrQKMAOuXxd49JAYH-02wxXsEDbYRtzt-Z_xKiusKCww$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/zsL0C8qYKmUjP1KjfZu5le?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbNtZXrGEg$>
>>> <Executive Summary 15 APRIL 2020 FINAL[1].docx>

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