[Xmca-l] Re: Translation or Paraphrase?

[Andy Blunden]

Well, I think a "literal" translation is as capable of 
misrepresenting the meaning of the original as what you call 
a paraphrase. When you read a translation, without access to 
the original, this is a huge act of trust. But if the 
translator is worthy of this trust, I appreciate a 
"paraphrase" which better conveys the meaning than a 
"literal" translation. At the same time, I am on the record 
as objecting loudly to missing definite and indefinite 
articles in translation from the Russian, or the mixing up 
of "unit" and "unity" which Nikolai Veresov has drawn 
attention to.

But a good paraphrase I am happy with.

Andy

------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 12/06/2019 1:27 pm, David Kellogg wrote:
> Oh, it's the same issue that Minick himself and others had 
> with the Hanfmann and Vakar translation, Andy. It's a 
> paraphrase.
>
> David Kellogg
> Sangmyung University
>
> New Article:
> Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without 
> SELF: Vygotsky’s
> pedology, Bruner’s constructivism and Halliday’s 
> construalism in understanding narratives by
> Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: 
> 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663
> To link to this article: 
> https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663
>
> Some e-prints available at:
> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 9:34 AM Andy Blunden 
> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
>     Firstly, I have checked the transcription, and it is
>     indeed true to the /LSVCW/ version. Originally, the
>     old "Thought and Language" translation had been used
>     here, but a few years ago I replaced it with Minick's.
>
>     My initial reaction is that Minick's rendering of the
>     sentence is much easier to read and understand. What
>     is the issue for you?
>
>     Andy
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------
>     Andy Blunden
>     http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>     On 12/06/2019 6:41 am, David Kellogg wrote:
>>     Andy:
>>
>>     On Vygotsky Internet Archive  version of T&S Chapter
>>     Five, Section Five, second paragraph, we've got this.
>>
>>     "Nevertheless, this mode of uniting concrete objects
>>     in a common group differs from that based on thinking
>>     in concepts or conceptual thinking. First, the nature
>>     of the connections that are established among the
>>     objects in the group differs from that characteristic
>>     of concepts. Second, as defined by the relationship
>>     of each object in the group to the group as a whole,
>>     the structure of the unified group differs profoundly
>>     in type and mode of activity from that based on
>>     conceptual thinking."
>>
>>     The Russian, in both the first 1934 edition and the
>>     1982 Russian CW edition is this:
>>
>>
>>     Но способ объединения различных конкретных предметов
>>     в общие группы, характер устанавливаемых при этом
>>     связей, структура возникающих на основе такого
>>     мышления единств, характеризующаяся отношением
>>     каждого отдельного предмета, входящего в состав
>>     группы, ко всей группе в целом, — все это глубоко
>>     отличается по своему типу и по способу деятельности
>>     от мышления в понятиях, развивающихся только в эпоху
>>     полового созревания.
>>
>>     The 1994 Vygotsky Reader, edited by Rene van der Veer
>>     and Jaan Valsiner, uses the 1931 "Pedology of the
>>     Adolescent" version of this study for its Chapter
>>     Nine. On p. 218, it's got this:
>>
>>     "But the manner of the unification of different real
>>     objects into general groups, the character of the
>>     connections which becomes established during th is
>>     process, the structure of the affinities which arise
>>     on the basis of such thinking, which is characterized
>>     by the relationship of each individual object having
>>     become part of the composition of the group, to the
>>     group as a whole - all th is is fundamentally
>>     different by its nature and the manner of its
>>     operation from thinking in concepts, which only
>>     develops at the time of puberty."
>>
>>
>>     This Vygotsky Reader version is an
>>     actual translation, but the version we have for T&S
>>     Chapter Five, which I assume is an accurate
>>     transcription of Norris Minick's version in the
>>     English CW, seems little more than a paraphrase. What
>>     gives?
>>
>>
>>
>>     David Kellogg
>>     Sangmyung University
>>
>>     New Article:
>>     Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without
>>     SELF: Vygotsky’s
>>     pedology, Bruner’s constructivism and Halliday’s
>>     construalism in understanding narratives by
>>     Korean children, Language and Education, DOI:
>>     10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663
>>     To link to this article:
>>     https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663
>>
>>     Some e-prints available at:
>>     https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663
>>
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