[Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in wild life system?

Andy Blunden andyb@marxists.org
Wed Jan 30 00:14:31 PST 2019


Where there is a state there is most likely inequality and 
injustice, Annalie.
Where do you see inequality and injustice as arising from?

andy

------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 30/01/2019 7:03 pm, Annalie Pistorius wrote:
>
> What about the inter-cultural historical?
>
> Annalie
>
> (Im a clinical psychologist from South Africa)
>
> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu 
> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of 
> *Martin Packer
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 29, 2019 5:18 PM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in wild 
> life system?
>
> Well, I was going to add that culture would be generally 
> considered an intersubjective phenomenon, rather than 
> subjective or objective. So it could be said that what 
> this discussion group is about — the C in XMCA — is 
> intersubjectivity.
>
> Should intersubjectivity be transcended? I think, Andy, 
> that you may be reading the word as some kind of merging 
> or sharing of subjectivities. Which is indeed how the word 
> has been used here not long ago. But Charles Taylor, for 
> example, defined intersubjectivity as meanings and norms 
> that exist in practices, not in individuals' minds. The 
> materiality of culture — material artefacts — seems to me 
> to be a very good example of this.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> On Jan 29, 2019, at 9:51 AM, Andy Blunden 
> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
> It's my view, Martin, that in making actions, including 
> intersubjective actions,/essentially/artefact-mediated, 
> Vygotsky transcended "intersubjectivity." His citing of 
> Marx citing Hegel on the "cunning of reason" is no accident.
>
> Hegel has what he calls (in typical Hegel style) the 
> "syllogism of action." This is the culminating concept of 
> the Logic making the transition to the Absolute Idea and 
> Nature. Hegel points out, and Marx picks up on this, that 
> this means that every action is mediated by material 
> culture. Hegel says "the plough is more honourable than 
> anything produced by its means." For Marx, this is about 
> the importance of ownership of the means of production. 
> For Vygotsky, it is what makes Cultural Psychology what it is.
>
> Emphasising the culture in the middle in no way minimises 
> the constructive role of language use, but it means that 
> the language itself plays, maybe. the more "honourable" 
> role. :)
>
> andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
> On 30/01/2019 1:41 am, Martin Packer wrote:
>
>     There was a general recognition in the social sciences
>     (including philosophy) some time ago that it is
>     crucial to recognize the existence and importance of
>     “intersubjective” phenomena.  Language, for example,
>     is not subjective, it is intersubjective. As Andy
>     notes, subjectivity and even objectivity (think
>     Latour’s analysis of science in Laboratory Life) arise
>     from and are dependent upon intersubjective phenomena.
>
>     Martin
>
>
>
>     On Jan 29, 2019, at 12:15 AM, Andy Blunden
>     <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
>     When you get the electric chair for murdering someone
>     that is not a linguistic construct.
>
>     andy
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     Andy Blunden
>     http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
>     On 29/01/2019 2:49 pm, Adam Poole (16517826) wrote:
>
>         Perhaps it may be more appropriate to use the term
>         'quasi-objective form', as the medium through
>         which concepts like inequality and injustice are
>         made objective, language, is itself inherently
>         subjective. For example, justice can be given
>         objective form in law, but the law itself is
>         comprised of language, customs, traditions,
>         beliefs, etc. The manifestation of an objective
>         form is not universal, but will differ depending
>         on cultural context. Hence quasi-objective.
>         Concepts like inequality are given objective form,
>         but it doesn't mean that they are objective
>         in nature, due to the mediating role of language.
>
>         Adam
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>on behalf
>         of Andy Blunden<andyb@marxists.org>
>         <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>
>         *Sent:*29 January 2019 08:16:35
>         *To:*xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>         *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in
>         wild life system?
>
>         Mmm, "subjective" is a polysemous word, Huw. It is
>         not a matter of precision but of relativity.
>         "Inequality" is a famously contested concept, as
>         is "injustice," but its contestation is
>         necessarily in a social context and with social
>         content. Justice and equality are given objective
>         form in law and social policy in definite,
>         really-existing states or organisations
>         challenging for state power, not the opinion of
>         individuals.
>
>         andy
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         Andy Blunden
>         http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
>         On 29/01/2019 1:50 am, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>
>             It isn't "subjective", Andy. Rather it is
>             limited to a certain construal. One can be
>             quite precise and objective about that construal.
>
>             Huw
>
>             On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 14:14, Andy Blunden
>             <andyb@marxists.org
>             <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
>                 I can't agree that with your suggestion,
>                 Huw, that inequality (in the meaning with
>                 which Harshad used it) is something
>                 subjective, in the eye of the beholder.
>                 Such a view would be very pernicious
>                 politically. The fact is that states have
>                 emerged and developed over many centuries
>                 so as to makes objective certain concepts
>                 of justice, among which are various
>                 qualified and nuances notions of equality.
>                 This is not figment of my imagination.
>
>                 andy
>
>                 ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                 Andy Blunden
>                 http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
>                 On 29/01/2019 12:59 am, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>
>                     We find "wild life" systems that are
>                     imbalanced and subject to radical changes.
>
>                     Inequality is a perceptual/cognitive
>                     construct and predicated on an
>                     ontological scope. We find the
>                     condition of inequality (or
>                     comparison) in our thinking and
>                     behaviour. Every living thing "finds"
>                     inequalities. We do not find
>                     inequality, we find the awareness of
>                     inequality.
>
>                     On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 08:17, James Ma
>                     <jamesma320@gmail.com
>                     <mailto:jamesma320@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>                         Should you find inequality within
>                         a wildlife system, that must be a
>                         political, ideological precept!
>
>                         James
>
>                         On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 07:56,
>                         James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:jamesma320@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>                             Not only is it meaningless but
>                             also preposterous. To maintain
>                             that all members of the same
>                             species are equal, as Anne
>                             Moir and David Jessel put it,
>                             is to "build a society based
>                             on a biological and scientific
>                             lie".
>
>                             James
>
>                             PS: I'm apolitical - anything
>                             political, ideological just
>                             doesn't speak to me!
>
>                             */_______________________________________________________/*
>
>                             */James Ma /*/Independent
>                             Scholarhttps://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
>                             /
>
>                             On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 05:27,
>                             Andy Blunden
>                             <andyb@marxists.org
>                             <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
>                             wrote:
>
>                                 Harshad,
>
>                                 "Inequality" is a
>                                 meaningless concept when
>                                 referred to Nature.
>                                 Likewise "Injustice."
>
>                                 Justice and equality are
>                                 relevant only to the
>                                 extent that the subjects
>                                 are living in an
>                                 'artificial' world, out of
>                                 Nature. Natural disasters
>                                 and the plenitude of
>                                 Nature have these
>                                 dimensions only to the
>                                 extent they are imposed on
>                                 or made available to
>                                 different classes of
>                                 people by the social system.
>
>                                 Hope that helps.
>
>                                 Andy
>
>                                 ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                                 Andy Blunden
>                                 http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
>                                 On 28/01/2019 4:00 pm,
>                                 Harshad Dave wrote:
>
>                                     Hi,
>
>                                     I am working on one
>                                     article. I want to
>                                     know your views on
>                                     following query.
>
>                                     "Do we find
>                                     Inequalities exists in
>                                     wild life system?"
>
>                                     Your views will help
>                                     me in my work.
>
>                                     Regards,
>
>                                     Image removed by sender.
>
>                                     Harshad Dave
>
>                                     Email:hhdave15@gmail.com
>                                     <mailto:hhdave15@gmail.com>
>
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>
> Martin
>
> /"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. 
> Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, 
> I become at once aware that my partner does not understand 
> anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling 
> that this also applies to myself” (Malinowski, 1930)/
>
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