[Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in wild life system?
Annalie Pistorius
annalie.pistorius@smu.ac.za
Wed Jan 30 00:03:55 PST 2019
What about the inter-cultural historical?
Annalie
(Im a clinical psychologist from South Africa)
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
[mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin Packer
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 5:18 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in wild life system?
Well, I was going to add that culture would be generally considered an
intersubjective phenomenon, rather than subjective or objective. So it could
be said that what this discussion group is about — the C in XMCA — is
intersubjectivity.
Should intersubjectivity be transcended? I think, Andy, that you may be
reading the word as some kind of merging or sharing of subjectivities. Which
is indeed how the word has been used here not long ago. But Charles Taylor,
for example, defined intersubjectivity as meanings and norms that exist in
practices, not in individuals' minds. The materiality of culture — material
artefacts — seems to me to be a very good example of this.
Martin
On Jan 29, 2019, at 9:51 AM, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
It's my view, Martin, that in making actions, including intersubjective
actions, essentially artefact-mediated, Vygotsky transcended
"intersubjectivity." His citing of Marx citing Hegel on the "cunning of
reason" is no accident.
Hegel has what he calls (in typical Hegel style) the "syllogism of action."
This is the culminating concept of the Logic making the transition to the
Absolute Idea and Nature. Hegel points out, and Marx picks up on this, that
this means that every action is mediated by material culture. Hegel says
"the plough is more honourable than anything produced by its means." For
Marx, this is about the importance of ownership of the means of production.
For Vygotsky, it is what makes Cultural Psychology what it is.
Emphasising the culture in the middle in no way minimises the constructive
role of language use, but it means that the language itself plays, maybe.
the more "honourable" role. :)
andy
_____
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 30/01/2019 1:41 am, Martin Packer wrote:
There was a general recognition in the social sciences (including
philosophy) some time ago that it is crucial to recognize the existence and
importance of “intersubjective” phenomena. Language, for example, is not
subjective, it is intersubjective. As Andy notes, subjectivity and even
objectivity (think Latour’s analysis of science in Laboratory Life) arise
from and are dependent upon intersubjective phenomena.
Martin
On Jan 29, 2019, at 12:15 AM, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
When you get the electric chair for murdering someone that is not a
linguistic construct.
andy
_____
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 29/01/2019 2:49 pm, Adam Poole (16517826) wrote:
Perhaps it may be more appropriate to use the term 'quasi-objective form',
as the medium through which concepts like inequality and injustice are made
objective, language, is itself inherently subjective. For example, justice
can be given objective form in law, but the law itself is comprised of
language, customs, traditions, beliefs, etc. The manifestation of an
objective form is not universal, but will differ depending on cultural
context. Hence quasi-objective. Concepts like inequality are given objective
form, but it doesn't mean that they are objective in nature, due to the
mediating role of language.
Adam
_____
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
on behalf of Andy Blunden <mailto:andyb@marxists.org> <andyb@marxists.org>
Sent: 29 January 2019 08:16:35
To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in wild life system?
Mmm, "subjective" is a polysemous word, Huw. It is not a matter of precision
but of relativity. "Inequality" is a famously contested concept, as is
"injustice," but its contestation is necessarily in a social context and
with social content. Justice and equality are given objective form in law
and social policy in definite, really-existing states or organisations
challenging for state power, not the opinion of individuals.
andy
_____
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 29/01/2019 1:50 am, Huw Lloyd wrote:
It isn't "subjective", Andy. Rather it is limited to a certain construal.
One can be quite precise and objective about that construal.
Huw
On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 14:14, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
I can't agree that with your suggestion, Huw, that inequality (in the
meaning with which Harshad used it) is something subjective, in the eye of
the beholder. Such a view would be very pernicious politically. The fact is
that states have emerged and developed over many centuries so as to makes
objective certain concepts of justice, among which are various qualified and
nuances notions of equality. This is not figment of my imagination.
andy
_____
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 29/01/2019 12:59 am, Huw Lloyd wrote:
We find "wild life" systems that are imbalanced and subject to radical
changes.
Inequality is a perceptual/cognitive construct and predicated on an
ontological scope. We find the condition of inequality (or comparison) in
our thinking and behaviour. Every living thing "finds" inequalities. We do
not find inequality, we find the awareness of inequality.
On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 08:17, James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:
Should you find inequality within a wildlife system, that must be a
political, ideological precept!
James
On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 07:56, James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:
Not only is it meaningless but also preposterous. To maintain that all
members of the same species are equal, as Anne Moir and David Jessel put it,
is to "build a society based on a biological and scientific lie".
James
PS: I'm apolitical - anything political, ideological just doesn't speak to
me!
_______________________________________________________
James Ma Independent Scholar https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 05:27, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
Harshad,
"Inequality" is a meaningless concept when referred to Nature. Likewise
"Injustice."
Justice and equality are relevant only to the extent that the subjects are
living in an 'artificial' world, out of Nature. Natural disasters and the
plenitude of Nature have these dimensions only to the extent they are
imposed on or made available to different classes of people by the social
system.
Hope that helps.
Andy
_____
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 28/01/2019 4:00 pm, Harshad Dave wrote:
Hi,
I am working on one article. I want to know your views on following query.
"Do we find Inequalities exists in wild life system?"
Your views will help me in my work.
Regards,
Image removed by sender.
Harshad Dave
Email: hhdave15@gmail.com
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Martin
"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss
matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my
partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with
the feeling that this also applies to myself” (Malinowski, 1930)
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