[Xmca-l] Re: language and music

Tue Nov 20 20:05:19 PST 2018

For many years I used the work of Ellen Dissenyake to teach comm classes
about language/music/development. She is quite unusual in ways that might
find interest here.

https://ellendissanayake.com/

mike

On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 2:16 PM James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Hello Simangele,
>
>
> In semiotic terms, whatever each of the participants has constructed
> internally is the signified, i.e. his or her understanding and
> interpretation. When it is vocalised (spoken out), it becomes the signifier
> to the listener. What's more, when the participants work together to
> compose a story impromptu, each of their signifiers turns into a new
> signified – a shared, newly-established understanding, woven into the
> fabric of meaning making.
>
>
> By the way, in Chinese language, words for singing and dancing have long
> been used inseparably. As I see it, they are semiotically indexed to, or
> adjusted to allow for, the feelings, emotions, actions and interactions of
> a consciousness who is experiencing the singing and dancing. Here are some
> idioms:
>
>
> 酣歌醉舞 - singing and dancing rapturously
>
>
> 村歌社舞 - dancing village and singing club
>
>
> 燕歌赵舞 - citizens of ancient Yan and Zhao good at singing and dancing,
> hence referring to wonderful songs and dances
>
>
> 舞榭歌楼 - a church or building set up for singing and dancing
>
>
>
>
> James
>
>
> *________________________________________________*
>
> *James Ma  Independent Scholar **https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
> <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa>   *
>
>
>
> On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 at 19:08, Simangele Mayisela <
> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Colleagues,
>>
>>
>>
>> This conversation is getting even more interesting, not that I have an
>> informed answer for you Rob, I can only think of the National Anthems where
>> people stand still when singing, even then this is observed only in
>> international events.
>>
>>
>>
>> Other occasions when people are likely not to move when singing when
>> there is death and the mood is sombre. Otherwise singing and rhythmic body
>> movement, called dance are a norm.
>>
>>
>>
>> This then makes me  wonder what this means in terms of cognitive
>> functioning, in the light of Vygotsky’s developmental stages – of language
>> and thought. Would the body movement constitute the externalisation of the
>> thoughts contained in the music?
>>
>>
>>
>> Helena – the video you are relating about reminds of the language
>> teaching or group therapy technique- where a group of learners (or
>> participants in OD settings) are instructed to tell a single coherent and
>> logical story as a group. They all take turns to say a sentence, a sentence
>> of not more than 6 words (depending on the instructor ), each time linking
>> your sentence to the sentence of previous articulator, with the next person
>> also doing the same, until the story sounds complete with conclusion. More
>> important is that they compose this story impromptu, It with such stories
>> that group dynamics are analysed, and in group therapy cases, collective
>> experiences of trauma are shared.  I suppose this is an example of
>> cooperative activity, although previously I would have thought of it as
>> just an “activity”
>>
>>
>>
>> Simangele
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *robsub@ariadne.org.uk
>> *Sent:* Friday, 16 November 2018 21:01
>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>; Helena
>> Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Michael C. Corballis
>>
>>
>>
>> I remember being told once that many languages do not have separate words
>> for singing and dancing, because if you sing you want to move - until
>> western civilisation beats it out of you.
>>
>> Does anybody know if this is actually true, or is it complete cod?
>>
>> If it is true, does it have something to say about the relationship
>> between the physical body and the development of speech?
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> On 16/11/2018 17:29, Helena Worthen wrote:
>>
>> I am very interested in where this conversation is going. I remember
>> being in a Theories of Literacy class in which Glynda Hull, the instructor,
>> showed a video of a singing circle somewhere in the Amazon, where an
>> incredibly complicated pattern of musical phrases wove in and out among the
>> singers underlaid by drumming that included turn-taking, call and response,
>> you name it. Maybe 20 people were involved, all pushing full steam ahead to
>> create something together that they all seemed to know about but wouldn’t
>> happen until they did it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Certainly someone has studied the relationship of musical communication
>> (improvised or otherwise), speech and gesture? I have asked musicians about
>> this and get blank looks. Yet clearly you can tell when you listen to
>> different kinds of music, not just Amazon drum and chant circles, that
>> there is some kind of speech - like potential embedded there. The Sonata
>> form is clearly involves exposition (they even use that word).
>>
>>
>>
>> For example: the soundtrack to the Coen Brothers’ film Fargo opens with a
>> musical theme that says, as clearly as if we were reading aloud from some
>> children’s book, “I am now going to tell you a very strange story that
>> sounds impossible but I promise you every word of it is
>> true…da-de-da-de-da.’ Only it doesn’t take that many words.
>>
>>
>>
>> (18) Fargo (1996) - 'Fargo, North Dakota' (Opening) scene [1080] - YouTube
>>
>>
>>
>> Helena Worthen
>>
>> helenaworthen@gmail.com
>>
>> Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745
>>
>> Blog US/ Viet Nam:
>>
>> helenaworthen.wordpress.com
>>
>> skype: helena.worthen1
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 16, 2018, at 8:56 AM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Andy and Peter,
>>
>> I like the turn taking principle a lot. It links language and music very
>> nicely: call and response. By voice and ear. While gesture is linked to
>> visual art. In face-to-face conversation there is this rhythmically
>> entrained interaction. It’s not just cooperative, it’s verbal/gestural art.
>> Any human work is potentially a work of art. Vera John-Steiner and Holbrook
>> Mahn have talked about how conversation can be a co-construction “at the
>> speed of thought”.  Heady stuff taking part, or just listening to, this
>> call and response between smart people.  And disheartening and destructive
>> when we give up on dialog.
>>
>>
>>
>> As I write this, I realize that the prosodic aspects of spoken language
>> (intonation) are gestural as well. It’s simplistic to restrict gesture to
>> visual signals. But I would say gesture is prototypically visual, an
>> accompaniment to the voice. In surfing the web, one can find some
>> interesting things on paralanguage which complicate the distinction between
>> language and gesture. I think it speaks to the embodiment of language in
>> the senses.
>>
>>
>>
>> Henry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 16, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Andy,
>>
>>
>>
>> I couldn't agree more. And thanks for introducing me to the notion
>> of delayed gratification as a precondition for sharing and turn-taking.
>>
>> That's a feature I hadn't considered before in connection with speech
>> communication. It makes sense that each participant would need
>>
>> to exercise patience in order to wait out someone else's turn.
>>
>>
>>
>> Much obliged.
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:50 AM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>>
>> Interesting, Peter.
>>
>> Corballis, oddly in my view, places a lot of weight in so-called mirror
>> neurons to explain perception of the intentionality of others. It seems
>> blindingly obvious to me that cooperative activity, specifically
>> participating in projects in which individuals share a common not-present
>> object, is a form of behaviour which begets the necessary perceptive
>> abilities. I have also long been of the view that delayed gratification, as
>> a precondition for sharing and turn-taking, as a matter of fact, is an
>> important aspect of sociality fostering the development of speech, and the
>> upright gait which frees the hands for carrying food back to camp where it
>> can be shared is important. None of which presupposes tools, only
>> cooperation.
>>
>> Andy
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Andy Blunden
>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=itd0qPWlE7uAuyEX0ii8ohEoZegfdMAOOLf-YoaEqqs&s=-uwTjZDhHtJM2EFdBS-rXLTptADQdSGAcibaav-mhJw&e=>
>>
>> On 17/11/2018 12:36 am, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] wrote:
>>
>> If I might chime in to this discussion:
>>
>>
>>
>> I submit that the key cooperative activity underlying speech
>> communication is *turn-taking*. I don't know how that activity or rule came
>> into being,
>>
>> but once it did, the activity of *exchanging* utterances became possible.
>> And with exchange came the complementarity of speaking and
>>
>> listening roles, and the activity of alternating conversational roles and
>> mental perspectives. Turn-taking is a key process in human development.
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 9:21 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>>
>> Oddly, Amazon delivered the book to me yesterday and I am currently on
>> p.5. Fortunately, Corballis provides a synopsis of his book at the end,
>> which I sneak-previewed last night.
>>
>> The interesting thing to me is his claim, similar to that of Merlin
>> Donald, which goes like this.
>>
>> It would be absurd to suggest that proto-humans discovered that they had
>> this unique and wonderful vocal apparatus and decided to use it for speech.
>> Clearly* there was rudimentary language before speech was humanly
>> possible*. In development, a behaviour is always present before the
>> physiological adaptations which facilitate it come into being. I.e,
>> proto-humans found themselves in circumstances where it made sense to
>> develop interpersonal, voluntary communication, and to begin with they used
>> what they had - the ability to mime and gesture, make facial expressions
>> and vocalisations (all of which BTW can reference non-present entities and
>> situations) This is an activity which further produces the conditions for
>> its own development. Eventually, over millions of years, the vocal
>> apparatus evolved under strong selection pressure due to the practice of
>> non-speech communication as an integral part of their evolutionary niche.
>> In other words, rudimentary wordless speech gradually became modern
>> speech, along with all the accompanying facial expressions and hand
>> movements.
>>
>> It just seems to me that, as you suggest, collective activity must have
>> been a part of those conditions fostering communication (something found in
>> our nearest evolutionary cousins who also have the elements of rudimentary
>> speech)  - as was increasing tool-using, tool-making, tool-giving and
>> tool-instructing.
>>
>> Andy
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Andy Blunden
>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=A3k5oeQ13zGCPUbWibdOb2KNZT4q__fLyCwugyULUDw&e=>
>>
>> On 16/11/2018 12:58 pm, Arturo Escandon wrote:
>>
>> Dear Andy,
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael Tomasello has made similar claims, grounding the surge of
>> articulated language on innate co-operativism and collective activity.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/cambridge-handbook-of-child-language/90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.cambridge.org_core_books_cambridge-2Dhandbook-2Dof-2Dchild-2Dlanguage_90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=vxJZooXRDYwTRrM4dzWBbLfUhF9HhmUvU3ouq6sbwPI&e=>
>>
>>
>>
>> Best
>>
>>
>>
>> Arturo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Sent from Gmail Mobile
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>
>> Director,
>>
>> Office of Institutional Research
>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>
>> Fordham University
>>
>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>
>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>
>>
>>
>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>
>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>
>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>
>> Director,
>>
>> Office of Institutional Research
>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>
>> Fordham University
>>
>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>
>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>
>>
>>
>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>
>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>
>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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