[Xmca-l] Re: Michael C. Corballis

Sat Nov 17 14:13:01 PST 2018

Hello Simangele,

In semiotic terms, whatever each of the participants has constructed
internally is the signified, i.e. his or her understanding and
interpretation. When it is vocalised (spoken out), it becomes the signifier
to the listener. What's more, when the participants work together to
compose a story impromptu, each of their signifiers turns into a new
signified – a shared, newly-established understanding, woven into the
fabric of meaning making.

By the way, in Chinese language, words for singing and dancing have long
been used inseparably. As I see it, they are semiotically indexed to, or
adjusted to allow for, the feelings, emotions, actions and interactions of
a consciousness who is experiencing the singing and dancing. Here are some
idioms:

酣歌醉舞 - singing and dancing rapturously

村歌社舞 - dancing village and singing club

燕歌赵舞 - citizens of ancient Yan and Zhao good at singing and dancing, hence
referring to wonderful songs and dances

舞榭歌楼 - a church or building set up for singing and dancing

James

*________________________________________________*

*James Ma  Independent Scholar **https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
<https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa>   *

On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 at 19:08, Simangele Mayisela <
simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote:

>
>
> Colleagues,
>
>
>
> This conversation is getting even more interesting, not that I have an
> informed answer for you Rob, I can only think of the National Anthems where
> people stand still when singing, even then this is observed only in
> international events.
>
>
>
> Other occasions when people are likely not to move when singing when there
> is death and the mood is sombre. Otherwise singing and rhythmic body
> movement, called dance are a norm.
>
>
>
> This then makes me  wonder what this means in terms of cognitive
> functioning, in the light of Vygotsky’s developmental stages – of language
> and thought. Would the body movement constitute the externalisation of the
> thoughts contained in the music?
>
>
>
> Helena – the video you are relating about reminds of the language teaching
> or group therapy technique- where a group of learners (or participants in
> OD settings) are instructed to tell a single coherent and logical story as
> a group. They all take turns to say a sentence, a sentence of not more than
> 6 words (depending on the instructor ), each time linking your sentence to
> the sentence of previous articulator, with the next person also doing the
> same, until the story sounds complete with conclusion. More important is
> that they compose this story impromptu, It with such stories that group
> dynamics are analysed, and in group therapy cases, collective experiences
> of trauma are shared.  I suppose this is an example of cooperative
> activity, although previously I would have thought of it as just an
> “activity”
>
>
>
> Simangele
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *robsub@ariadne.org.uk
> *Sent:* Friday, 16 November 2018 21:01
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>; Helena
> Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Michael C. Corballis
>
>
>
> I remember being told once that many languages do not have separate words
> for singing and dancing, because if you sing you want to move - until
> western civilisation beats it out of you.
>
> Does anybody know if this is actually true, or is it complete cod?
>
> If it is true, does it have something to say about the relationship
> between the physical body and the development of speech?
>
> Rob
>
> On 16/11/2018 17:29, Helena Worthen wrote:
>
> I am very interested in where this conversation is going. I remember being
> in a Theories of Literacy class in which Glynda Hull, the instructor,
> showed a video of a singing circle somewhere in the Amazon, where an
> incredibly complicated pattern of musical phrases wove in and out among the
> singers underlaid by drumming that included turn-taking, call and response,
> you name it. Maybe 20 people were involved, all pushing full steam ahead to
> create something together that they all seemed to know about but wouldn’t
> happen until they did it.
>
>
>
> Certainly someone has studied the relationship of musical communication
> (improvised or otherwise), speech and gesture? I have asked musicians about
> this and get blank looks. Yet clearly you can tell when you listen to
> different kinds of music, not just Amazon drum and chant circles, that
> there is some kind of speech - like potential embedded there. The Sonata
> form is clearly involves exposition (they even use that word).
>
>
>
> For example: the soundtrack to the Coen Brothers’ film Fargo opens with a
> musical theme that says, as clearly as if we were reading aloud from some
> children’s book, “I am now going to tell you a very strange story that
> sounds impossible but I promise you every word of it is
> true…da-de-da-de-da.’ Only it doesn’t take that many words.
>
>
>
> (18) Fargo (1996) - 'Fargo, North Dakota' (Opening) scene [1080] - YouTube
>
>
>
> Helena Worthen
>
> helenaworthen@gmail.com
>
> Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745
>
> Blog US/ Viet Nam:
>
> helenaworthen.wordpress.com
>
> skype: helena.worthen1
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> On Nov 16, 2018, at 8:56 AM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Andy and Peter,
>
> I like the turn taking principle a lot. It links language and music very
> nicely: call and response. By voice and ear. While gesture is linked to
> visual art. In face-to-face conversation there is this rhythmically
> entrained interaction. It’s not just cooperative, it’s verbal/gestural art.
> Any human work is potentially a work of art. Vera John-Steiner and Holbrook
> Mahn have talked about how conversation can be a co-construction “at the
> speed of thought”.  Heady stuff taking part, or just listening to, this
> call and response between smart people.  And disheartening and destructive
> when we give up on dialog.
>
>
>
> As I write this, I realize that the prosodic aspects of spoken language
> (intonation) are gestural as well. It’s simplistic to restrict gesture to
> visual signals. But I would say gesture is prototypically visual, an
> accompaniment to the voice. In surfing the web, one can find some
> interesting things on paralanguage which complicate the distinction between
> language and gesture. I think it speaks to the embodiment of language in
> the senses.
>
>
>
> Henry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> Andy,
>
>
>
> I couldn't agree more. And thanks for introducing me to the notion
> of delayed gratification as a precondition for sharing and turn-taking.
>
> That's a feature I hadn't considered before in connection with speech
> communication. It makes sense that each participant would need
>
> to exercise patience in order to wait out someone else's turn.
>
>
>
> Much obliged.
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:50 AM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
> Interesting, Peter.
>
> Corballis, oddly in my view, places a lot of weight in so-called mirror
> neurons to explain perception of the intentionality of others. It seems
> blindingly obvious to me that cooperative activity, specifically
> participating in projects in which individuals share a common not-present
> object, is a form of behaviour which begets the necessary perceptive
> abilities. I have also long been of the view that delayed gratification, as
> a precondition for sharing and turn-taking, as a matter of fact, is an
> important aspect of sociality fostering the development of speech, and the
> upright gait which frees the hands for carrying food back to camp where it
> can be shared is important. None of which presupposes tools, only
> cooperation.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=itd0qPWlE7uAuyEX0ii8ohEoZegfdMAOOLf-YoaEqqs&s=-uwTjZDhHtJM2EFdBS-rXLTptADQdSGAcibaav-mhJw&e=>
>
> On 17/11/2018 12:36 am, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] wrote:
>
> If I might chime in to this discussion:
>
>
>
> I submit that the key cooperative activity underlying speech communication
> is *turn-taking*. I don't know how that activity or rule came into being,
>
> but once it did, the activity of *exchanging* utterances became possible.
> And with exchange came the complementarity of speaking and
>
> listening roles, and the activity of alternating conversational roles and
> mental perspectives. Turn-taking is a key process in human development.
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 9:21 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
> Oddly, Amazon delivered the book to me yesterday and I am currently on
> p.5. Fortunately, Corballis provides a synopsis of his book at the end,
> which I sneak-previewed last night.
>
> The interesting thing to me is his claim, similar to that of Merlin
> Donald, which goes like this.
>
> It would be absurd to suggest that proto-humans discovered that they had
> this unique and wonderful vocal apparatus and decided to use it for speech.
> Clearly* there was rudimentary language before speech was humanly
> possible*. In development, a behaviour is always present before the
> physiological adaptations which facilitate it come into being. I.e,
> proto-humans found themselves in circumstances where it made sense to
> develop interpersonal, voluntary communication, and to begin with they used
> what they had - the ability to mime and gesture, make facial expressions
> and vocalisations (all of which BTW can reference non-present entities and
> situations) This is an activity which further produces the conditions for
> its own development. Eventually, over millions of years, the vocal
> apparatus evolved under strong selection pressure due to the practice of
> non-speech communication as an integral part of their evolutionary niche.
> In other words, rudimentary wordless speech gradually became modern
> speech, along with all the accompanying facial expressions and hand
> movements.
>
> It just seems to me that, as you suggest, collective activity must have
> been a part of those conditions fostering communication (something found in
> our nearest evolutionary cousins who also have the elements of rudimentary
> speech)  - as was increasing tool-using, tool-making, tool-giving and
> tool-instructing.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=A3k5oeQ13zGCPUbWibdOb2KNZT4q__fLyCwugyULUDw&e=>
>
> On 16/11/2018 12:58 pm, Arturo Escandon wrote:
>
> Dear Andy,
>
>
>
> Michael Tomasello has made similar claims, grounding the surge of
> articulated language on innate co-operativism and collective activity.
>
>
>
>
> https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/cambridge-handbook-of-child-language/90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.cambridge.org_core_books_cambridge-2Dhandbook-2Dof-2Dchild-2Dlanguage_90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=vxJZooXRDYwTRrM4dzWBbLfUhF9HhmUvU3ouq6sbwPI&e=>
>
>
>
> Best
>
>
>
> Arturo
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Sent from Gmail Mobile
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>
> Director,
>
> Office of Institutional Research
> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>
> Fordham University
>
> Thebaud Hall-202
>
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> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>
> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>
> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>
> Director,
>
> Office of Institutional Research
> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>
> Fordham University
>
> Thebaud Hall-202
>
> Bronx, NY 10458
>
>
>
> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>
> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>
> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>
>
>
>
>
>
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