[Xmca-l] Re: Article for discussion: Facebook in Brazilian schools

[mike cole]

I think you question is really interesting, David. It is my personal belief
that the project of coordinating, if not entirely reconciling,
Vygotsky and Halliday is an important theoretical goal. And I find the
historical and arts examples helpful to think with. But since that is not
what the paper is about, and we are discussing the paper, I urge that we
come back to it after people get to respond to the paper under discussion.
If you restart us, I promise a personal example I think is what you are
talking about, but it does not break into two sentences, one SVO -- OV
contrast. Its from a time when I was in charge of some visiting Americans
and tried to talk our way into
a crowded restaurant in Moscow, so a Russian example.

At the moment I am waiting to see what Monica and Fernando can make out of
the comments so far. And to hear from
others who have thoughts on the matter.  It seems to me that everyone on
the list is considering the problem of the "effect of social media use on
human development. Certainly I do! :-)
mike




On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 2:49 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:

> We know in retrospect that some shifts in semiohistory matter (e.g.
> writing, printing, grammatical metaphor) and others lead to dead ends
> (carrier pigeons, eight track tapes, epistolary novels). Is this simply a
> case of our own anatomy is the key to the anatomy of the ape, or is
> there some way to tell which technologies, exapted for purposes which were
> quite alien to the ones their inventors had in mind, will offer differences
> that can make a difference? I think that Mike and Greg and others are quite
> right to say that this is not the question that the authors of the article
> ask. But it's my question, and it's a real question.
>
> In a paper on "Language Evolving", Halliday gives a very
> fast-forward "semiohistory" in three Fs--forest, farm, and factory. He
> points out that forest lore tends to be quite down-to-earth (an old
> girlfriend of mine who spent time in the forests of Borneo with the Penan
> once sent me a dart tipped with curare as a birthday present, but pointed
> out the Penan themselves don't use them as tokens of anything, but only as
> tools to change the environment). Farm lore is cyclical, discursive,
> and often written for the first time. Factory lore has many of the
> qualities we find in printing presses and assembly lines: interchangeable
> parts, syntagmatic variation combined with paradigmatic choices, and
> complex unity between the individual part and the whole. Halliday wonders
> if we are on the threshold of a fourth F, namely fantasy, which corresponds
> to work in offices.
>
> Historically, the verb "like" meant "please"; that's why Iago says "That
> likes me not" when he sees Cassio doing something which he thinks will
> displease Othello. In Korean, it still has this meaning: we don't say "I
> like it"; rather "This pleases". The relationship is what Halliday calls
> "ergative": that is, the relationship we find when people interact not with
> other people but with things.
>
> Mike opened the door.  The door opened.
> Mike boiled the kettle. The kettle boiled.
> Mike drove the car. The car drove.
> Mike booted up the computer, etc.
>
> The "Song of the Summer" here in Korea was called "Likey Likey Likey" and
> it is almost entirely written around the highly ergative premise of "me
> likey?" (i.e. "Do I please you?", but to put it that way is precisely to
> miss the elision of the liking subject).
>
> https://colorcodedlyrics.com/2017/10/twice-likey
>
> Halliday says that English is currently in transition, from a "heroic" SVO
> style, where actors perform activities on and for objects, to a much more
> ergative OV style, where stuff just happens and the agent is unspoken.
> Since the AT in CHAT rather presupposes the SVO style, it seems to me
> discussion-worthy. So my question--and it is not the question asked in the
> article, but a real question nevertheless--is to whether this constitutes
> an affordance for qualitative progress in meaning-making or whether in the
> long run it is simply more of the same.
>
>
>
> David Kellogg
> Sangmyung University
>
> Recent Article in *Early Years*
>
> The question of questions: Hasan’s critiques, Vygotsky’s crises, and the
> child’s first interrogatives
> <https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09575146.2018.1431874>
>
> Free e-print available at:
> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/6EeWMigjFARavQjDJjcW/full
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 4:02 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> > Monica, Fernando et al.....
> >
> > The US news is full of stories about a national student walkout over
> guns &
> > schools. Here in San Diego, where mr trump is expected tomorrow, local
> > school principals are supporting students to walk out.
> >
> > Question: Here in the US a lot of the communicative action appears to be
> on
> > twitter, instagram, etc....  How would one study
> > those more emphemeral media?
> >
> > For example>
> > https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/schools-brace-for-
> > massive-student-walkouts-over-gun-violence
> > .
> >
> > Thanks Andy for finding the story. I had the mis-impression that
> headlines
> > in the print edition were repeated
> > in the online version. (see meme on grandpa and computer).
> >
> > I still don't understand Figure 3 properly to be able to link it to
> > questions of transformative agency.
> >
> > mike
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Greg Thompson <
> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > David,
> > > FB does seem to be something new as a medium of communication in as
> much
> > as
> > > it operates on an asynchronic timescale that previously did not exist
> > > (i.e., conversations that happen at the timescale of a few hours,
> > sometimes
> > > days, and very very seldom, weeks). Along with that is the cheapness of
> > the
> > > medium of communication (vs. say, a telegraph or a letter - both of
> which
> > > are forms of asynchronous communication, more the letter than the
> > > telegraph).
> > > Those are two things that seem new to me about the medium (although
> > > list-serves, those technological dinosaurs, seem to be able to do both
> of
> > > these things and yet FB is not the same thing as a list serve. What
> might
> > > account for that difference?).
> > >
> > > But that question seems a little beside the point of this article. The
> > > question here seems to be: what did FB do in *this case*?
> > >
> > > Here are some suggestions from the authors of what FB did for the Four
> > > Movements:
> > >
> > > "by using Facebook pages as a communicative tool, students could
> > coordinate
> > > demonstrations occurring at the same time in different cities, which
> was
> > > possible due to the expansion in the number of Facebook pages." (p. 61)
> > >
> > > and, less thrillingly (for those who care about "free speech" and
> "public
> > > discussion", but perhaps censoring is an important part of any social
> > > movement? David, maybe this was part of your point?):
> > > "From the posts analysed in this study, we observed that page
> organizers
> > > authorized only posts that supported the Four Movements, blocking or
> > > deleting posts that were against them."
> > >
> > > and:
> > > "Having a motive and motivation, as suggested by Rantavuori and
> > colleagues
> > > (2016), the use of Facebook pages as a form of human–technology
> > interaction
> > > strengthened the collaborative aspect of the activities and enabled new
> > > ways of envisioning the future, which potentializes collaborative
> > agency."
> > >
> > > and most simply, in conclusion:
> > > "In this study, we discussed how students used social media, more
> > > specifically Facebook pages, as a
> > > mediational communicative tool for organizing, developing, and
> expanding
> > > the Four Movements.
> > > The expansive learning process demonstrated by the students and the
> > > transformation of the object of
> > > the protest was enhanced by using these networks as a form of
> > > human–technology interaction."
> > >
> > > and one that I didn't quite understand:
> > > "In contrast to previous research on human–technology interaction
> > (Bardram
> > > & Doryab, 2011; Cunha
> > > Jr., Van Oers, & Kontopodis, 2016), the instability faced by the Four
> > > Movements led to the adequacy
> > > of the instrument, and to the transformation of the object." (p. 63).
> > >
> > > Others' thoughts?
> > > -greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 6:34 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks for finding and sharing the link, Andy, and thanks Michael and
> > > Mike
> > > > for bringing the absolutely relevant connection to Parklands.
> > > >
> > > > There was not so long ago a discussion here as well as in a couple of
> > > > articles in MCA about how crises leading to development most often
> > result
> > > > from quantitative increments that lead to qualitative leaps such that
> > new
> > > > forms of organization emerge from previous ones. So, David, I don't
> see
> > > why
> > > > increments in the pace of circulation (e.g., of information) would
> not
> > be
> > > > expected to bring with them changes in the organisation of the whole
> > > > economy system. I would not say that social media is just bringing a
> > lot
> > > > more of the same, just as I would not a priori reject the possibility
> > > that
> > > > bringing a lot more of the same might not end up bringing new
> > qualitative
> > > > forms of communicating. The observation that "like" is intransitive
> in
> > > > Facebook is interesting; but to me it needs to be put in its larger
> > > context
> > > > of use. And so, are we analysing Facebook as a grammar closed up in
> > > itself,
> > > > or as one more chain in a larger grammar of possible cooperation?
> > > >
> > > > I am myself concerned that Social Media like Facebook may be
> amplifying
> > > > dichotomical thinking beyond the innocuous and often way-to-verbose
> > > essays
> > > > we academics enjoy entertaining with much more complex verbal forms
> > than
> > > > Facebook's intransitive "likes", only that the confrontations now
> seem
> > to
> > > > be moving to family's dinner tables, quarrels among protesters in
> > public
> > > > squares, or previously unheard of incarcerations for publishing
> tweets
> > > and
> > > > rap songs that critique the crown in a supposedly modern democracy
> like
> > > > Spain (e.g.: http://cadenaser.com/ser/2018/
> > 02/20/tribunales/1519135083_
> > > > 106543.html). But the article here discussed also shows that there
> are
> > > > forms of organization that these technologies are affording that may
> > > bring
> > > > more positive changes, like the case again in Spain of March 8th
> > women's
> > > > strike, the extent of which no politician or journalist had
> anticipated
> > > and
> > > > which led the government to quickly adopt a much more equity-friendly
> > > > discourse than even the evening before (https://www.youtube.com/
> > > > watch?v=4_11iIELdfc). So, no, probably that one strike, or that one
> > > > social media that may have made it possible, won't change the system.
> > But
> > > > they seem to incrementally add to something, don't they?
> > > >
> > > > Alfredo Jornet
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > New article in *Design Studies* "Imagining Design: Transitive and
> > > > intransitive dimensions"
> > > > Free print available: https://authors.elsevier.com/a/1WhHg_,KmyN6Dr
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________________
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> edu
> > >
> > > > on behalf of Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org>
> > > > Sent: 12 March 2018 06:39
> > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for discussion: Facebook in Brazilian
> > > schools
> > > >
> > > > That headline does not exist, but is it this:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/07/us/parkland-students-
> > > social-media.html
> > > >
> > > > Andy
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Andy Blunden
> > > > ttp://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> > > > On 12/03/2018 4:02 PM, mike cole wrote:
> > > > > Michael - I have been trying to find a digital copy of a story in
> > > today's
> > > > > NY Times titled "the social media warriors of parkland." For some
> > > reason
> > > > it
> > > > > is not visible on the digital version.... yet. Maybe someone out
> > there
> > > in
> > > > > xmca-land can find it for us? I will check again
> > > > > in the morning to see if it appears.
> > > > >      It seems especially relevant to Monica and Fernando's article,
> > and
> > > > to
> > > > > David's comment that "  it is very hard for me to pinpoint any
> > > > > actual new form of thinking or new form of speaking which was made
> > > > possible by
> > > > > Facebook."  The voices and forms of speaking used by the students
> was
> > > > not,
> > > > > so far as I could tell, the source of data. There are no quotations
> > of
> > > > any
> > > > > students speaking differently. I assumed that this article was
> about
> > > > > collective action.
> > > > > Monica and Fernando - I confess I had difficulty following parts of
> > the
> > > > > article, perhaps because I am a very seldom user of Facebook. In
> > > > > particular, I had difficulty understanding Figure 3.  Were the
> people
> > > who
> > > > > started M1 also those who started M2-M3? ( " Once students achieved
> > the
> > > > > object of the activity—in the first case, to avoid the closure of
> the
> > > > > schools—they focused the protests on another object").
> > > > >
> > > > > Did the M4 people get the idea from M1 through a FB connection form
> > M1?
> > > > Did
> > > > > you get any sense of what distinguished pages that got a few
> hundred
> > > > versus
> > > > > 10,000 reactions?
> > > > >
> > > > > Harshad - Did you think the article failed to consider social
> issues?
> > > > There
> > > > > is no information about you on the xmca membership
> > > > > page, so it is difficult to know from what part of the world you
> are
> > > > > writing. Unless I miss my guess, some people will wonder at your
> > > > > use of the word "man" where the local practice might put
> "humankind"
> > or
> > > > > some other gender inclusive term.
> > > > >
> > > > > David - Daylight saving time tonight so I find myself "working
> late."
> > > It
> > > > > got me to wondering how many people live in Seoul. A lot, it turns
> > out.
> > > > > About 9-10 million. That got me to wondering about how much faster
> > all
> > > > > those people would be getting around on horses with all the horse
> > plops
> > > > to
> > > > > clamber over. And all that hay to haul into town for the morning
> rush
> > > > > hour.  :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > mike
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 8:25 PM, Glassman, Michael <
> > > glassman.13@osu.edu>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Hi David,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I'm sure those meddling kids won't come back on your lawn any time
> > > soon.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> But really, the article did not say Facebook is a new type of
> > > > technology.
> > > > >> I believe they said that it's a form of human-technology
> interaction
> > > and
> > > > >> suggested perhaps social media was a new type of human-technology
> > > > >> interaction.  I don't agree with this phrasing. I tend to think of
> > > > Facebook
> > > > >> more as an application of Internet technology - but either way
> > > Facebook
> > > > is
> > > > >> just a form or an application. Is the internetworking of computer,
> > > radio
> > > > >> and satellite communication an enormous step forward in how humans
> > > > >> communicate.  I think so - it's really extraordinary on a number
> of
> > > > levels
> > > > >> but that's really not the conversation for this article.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I do think the authors have done an analysis that is interesting
> and
> > > > >> possibly important, especially when one considers what is
> currently
> > > > going
> > > > >> on down in Parkland (some might be happy to know that, at least
> from
> > > > what I
> > > > >> have read, Facebook isn't dominant or even that important for
> these
> > > > >> students. Adults have been using it more for larger organizational
> > > > events
> > > > >> like the March 14 walkout and the March 24 march).  I have read
> some
> > > > >> articles on organizing on online forums (and actually wrote a not
> > very
> > > > good
> > > > >> one a few years back). Most of them are communications based an
> > don't
> > > > have
> > > > >> strong theoretical underpinning which is why I think this article
> > > might
> > > > be
> > > > >> an important step forward.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think the idea of using third generation activity theory might
> be
> > a
> > > > good
> > > > >> idea for this type of analysis. I myself have seen ties between
> the
> > > > >> trialogical approach being developed by Hakkareinan and Paavola
> and
> > > > what is
> > > > >> going on down in Parkland. The students are creating their own
> > > projects
> > > > and
> > > > >> then getting the larger community to buy in to and support what
> they
> > > are
> > > > >> doing which is in turn changing the quality of their activities. I
> > > have
> > > > my
> > > > >> own ideas on why this is suddenly happening and direct
> communication
> > > > >> technologies like Twitter and texting (which seem primary
> vehicles)
> > > are
> > > > >> only part of it.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Anyway, this particular article I think is really timely and
> should
> > > give
> > > > >> us a lot to think about.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Michael
> > > > >>
> > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
> > > > >> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg
> > > > >> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 6:03 PM
> > > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for discussion: Facebook in
> Brazilian
> > > > schools
> > > > >>
> > > > >> So in the fifteenth century, Gutenberg exapted extant technology
> > > already
> > > > >> widely available in China and published a single text using
> moveable
> > > > type
> > > > >> which started a profound intellectual, cultural, and social
> > revolution
> > > > >> whose effects we still feel today: the rise of Protestantism, the
> > > > >> Counter-Reformation in, among other places, Brazil, the Wars of
> > > > Religion in
> > > > >> France, the vicissitudes of a multii-confessional (political)
> State
> > > and
> > > > >> ultimately those of a multi-confessional (psychological) state, In
> > the
> > > > >> twentieth century, Ford similarly exapted extant technology, this
> > time
> > > > >> nearly two millenia later than China, and mass-produced
> automobiles
> > > > using
> > > > >> Taylorism, forcing everybody to buy an identical product with
> > > > >> interchangeable parts made by factories with interchangeable
> > workers.
> > > > >> The automobile "revolution" did not even give us new roads, and in
> > > Seoul
> > > > >> today traffic moves notably slower than it would on horseback.
> > > Clearly,
> > > > >> there are some forms of technology that are actually
> semiogenic--and
> > > > others
> > > > >> which merely circulate capital at a faster rate and actually slow
> > the
> > > > >> movement of people and new ideas.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> So my question is very simple. How do we know that "Facebook"
> (which
> > > as
> > > > >> the name implies was originally designed to help Harvard freshmen
> > > decide
> > > > >> which classmates were sufficiently hot to "like") is really one of
> > the
> > > > >> former technologies?.There are very clear signs , beyond the
> obvious
> > > > ones
> > > > >> surrounding the American origins, that it belongs to the latter
> > > > category,
> > > > >> and not a few of them appear in this very article. First of all,
> the
> > > > >> authors are honest enough to associate Facebook with reactionary,
> > > > >> xenophobic, populist movements like the clowns who run the "Five
> > > Stars"
> > > > >> movement in Italy. Second, on the very first page, the authors try
> > but
> > > > do
> > > > >> not really seem to be able to distinguish between the "post first
> > and
> > > > >> organize later" technologies of Occupy Wall Street and the use of
> > > social
> > > > >> media by the four movements in the article (including one actually
> > > > called
> > > > >> "Occupy Everything"). And thirdly, it is very hard for me to
> > pinpoint
> > > > any
> > > > >> actual new form of thinking or new form of speaking which was made
> > > > possible
> > > > >> by Facebook. If anything, Facebook seems to narrow semiogenic
> power
> > > to a
> > > > >> single consumer/computer menu. Ford said, you can get a Model A in
> > any
> > > > >> color you like so long as it's black. Facebook tells us the same
> > > thing,
> > > > but
> > > > >> makes the verb "like" intransitive.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> David Kellogg
> > > > >> Sangmyung University
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Recent Article in *Early Years*
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The question of questions: Hasan’s critiques, Vygotsky’s crises,
> and
> > > the
> > > > >> child’s first interrogatives <https://www.tandfonline.com/
> > > > >> doi/full/10.1080/09575146.2018.1431874>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Free e-print available at:
> > > > >> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/6EeWMigjFARavQjDJjcW/full
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 7:30 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> > > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Dear xmca'ers,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> it is (bit over) due time for introducing the article for
> > discussion
> > > > >>> from MCA's 2018 Issue 1, before Issue 2 comes upon us soon.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> The selected article, by Monica Ferreira Lemos and Fernando
> Rezende
> > > da
> > > > >>> Cunha Júnior, is about two topics that were thematised in the
> last
> > > > >>> ISCAR congress and that ought to be of much relevance to current
> > and
> > > > >>> future CHAT-related research: Social media and social movements.
> In
> > > > >>> particular, the article examines how students use social media
> for
> > > the
> > > > >>> organization and development of 4 social movements in Brazil.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> The article is attached and is Free access during the discussion
> > > > period.
> > > > >>> It can be accessed free in the following link:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.
> 2017.1379823
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> The authors have kindly agreed to participate in the discussion
> and
> > > > >>> they will be introducing themselves soon. I hope you  will find
> the
> > > > >>> article interesting and please don't be shy to share anything you
> > > > >>> might have learned reading it, anything you might wonder about it
> > or
> > > > >>> that you would like see discussed. Having authors engage in
> > dialogue
> > > > >>> is a great opportunity that this community offers and that makes
> > > sense
> > > > >>> the most when many of you participate. Good reading!
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> ?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Alfredo Jornet
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> New article in *Design Studies* "Imagning Design: Transitive and
> > > > >>> intransitive dimensions"
> > > > >>> Free print available: https://authors.elsevier.com/
> > a/1WhHg_,KmyN6Dr
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > Assistant Professor
> > > Department of Anthropology
> > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > Brigham Young University
> > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu
> > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > >
> >
>