[Xmca-l] Re: Bronfennbrenner discussion

Tue Jan 30 15:52:59 PST 2018

Andy--I don't understand how "context" means "the world". That's what
Malinowski thought. But I'm a linguist, and for me "context" is an
abstraction from the world: a context of culture is the ensemble of
relations in the world which we choose to semanticize in a given language,
and a context of situation is the ensemble of  relations in the world which
we choose to semanticize in a single text. But even if you are not a
linguist, doesn't a "context" always mean something that goes with a text,
like chili con carne goes with meat?

dk

David Kellogg

Recent Article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity* 24 (4) 'Metaphoric,
Metonymic, Eclectic, or Dialectic? A Commentary on “Neoformation: A
Dialectical Approach to Developmental Change”'

Free e-print available (for a short time only) at

http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/YAWPBtmPM8knMCNg6sS6/full

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Mike, I have never been a reader of Bronfennbrenner, so my
> comments may be immaterial here and I am happy if you and
> others simply let them go through to the 'keeper (i.e.,
> catcher).
>
> You will recall that in my "Interdisciplinary" book I
> appreciated your work, but criticised it for your claim to
> include "context" in the "unit of analysis" on the basis
> that "context" was an "open ended totality" and to include
> it in the "unit of analysis" was to destroy the very idea of
> a "unit."
>
> A point of agreement between us though has been the need for
> what we both call a "meso-level" unit between the individual
> action and the world, and that my use of "project" to name
> this meso-level unit, and that the 5thD project was such a
> unit, persisting for more than an individual's lifetime and
> escaping the control of the founder, but yet falling short
> of macro-level units like the economy, science, the nation, etc.
>
> Yjro is quite right when he said "the context is the
> activity,", or rather "the activities." "The activity" is of
> course the project. But here Yrjo is being true to analysis
> by units. He is suggesting that the world is best conceived
> as being made up of activities (I would say "projects").
>
> To claim to include the "context" (which as you know means
> "the world") *in* the unit which makes up the world, is the
> same logical fallacy as asking whether "I always lie" is a
> lie, and destroy the whole point of analysis by units, which
> is to approach understanding infinite totalities by means of
> little things that you can grasp, which none the less
> characterise the whole. This unit, projects, is mediating
> between the individual action and the world.
>
> The problem is, I think, Yrjo's redefinition of "unit of
> analysis" as (according to some of his students) "the unit
> to be analysed," which I characterise as that list you make
> up, of everything you're going to put in your suitcase,
> which you might need on your journey. This was *not*
> Vygotsky's idea, or that of Goethe, Hegel or Marx.
>
> Whatever the problem, what happens depends on the context.
> How do you conceive of the context? by units. The context is
> a totality not part of a unit.
>
> :)
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> On 31/01/2018 9:45 AM, mike cole wrote:
> > Hi Jon-
> >
> >      There are obviously a ton of issues to discuss in your article. I
> > guess that my paper on using his ideas as part of the process of
> designing
> > activities for kids in university-community partnerships is
> > an example of inappropriate mis-appropriations. I'm not sure.  If I need
> a
> > defense its that I thought the ideas as I understood them useful, but I
> was
> > not testing his formulations in the same way you are concerned to do, but
> > using (some of) them for planning, analysis, and interpretation.
> >
> >     While trying to sort that out, I'll just make a couple of
> observations.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 5:17 PM, Jonathan Tudge <jrtudge@uncg.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes, Martin, there always is culture within the microsystem--it's the
> only
> >> place in which culture is experienced.  Microsystems are always embedded
> >> within culture (I'd add always within multiple cultures, but I don't
> think
> >> that Urie ever wrote that).
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Jon
> >>
> >>
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>
> >> Jonathan Tudge
> >>
> >> Professor
> >> Office: 155 Stone
> >>
> >> Our work on gratitude: http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/
> >>
> >> A new book just published: Tudge, J. & Freitas, L. (Eds.) Developing
> >> gratitude in children and adolescents
> >> <https://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge/books/dev-gratitude-
> >> in-children-and-adolescents-flyer.pdf>,
> >> Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press
> >>
> >> My web site:http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge
> >>
> >> Mailing address:
> >> 248 Stone Building
> >> Department of Human Development and Family Studies
> >> PO Box 26170
> >> The University of North Carolina at Greensboro
> >> Greensboro, NC 27402-6170
> >> USA
> >>
> >> phone (336) 223-6181
> >> fax   (336) 334-5076
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 7:10 PM, Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Wow, very graphic!  At first I thought my microsystem had exploded!  :)
> >>>
> >>> The 20,000 dollar question for me has always been, why is culture in
> the
> >>> macrosystem? Is there no culture in my here-&-now interactions with
> other
> >>> people? (Well, perhaps in my case not!)
> >>>
> >>> Martin
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Jan 29, 2018, at 6:34 PM, Jonathan Tudge <jrtudge@uncg.edu> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Greetings, Martin,
> >>>>
> >>>> I hope that this works (taken from a powerpoint presentation).
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> Jon
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>
> >>>> Jonathan Tudge
> >>>>
> >>>> Professor
> >>>> Office: 155 Stone
> >>>>
> >>>> Our work on gratitude: http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/
> >>>>
> >>>> A new book just published: Tudge, J. & Freitas, L. (Eds.) Developing
> >>>> gratitude in children and adolescents
> >>>> <https://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge/books/dev-
> >>> gratitude-in-children-and-adolescents-flyer.pdf>,
> >>>> Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press
> >>>>
> >>>> My web site:http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge
> >>>>
> >>>> Mailing address:
> >>>> 248 Stone Building
> >>>> Department of Human Development and Family Studies
> >>>> PO Box 26170
> >>>> The University of North Carolina at Greensboro
> >>>> Greensboro, NC 27402-6170
> >>>> USA
> >>>>
> >>>> phone (336) 223-6181
> >>>> fax   (336) 334-5076
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 6:22 PM, Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Jon,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Would it be possible for you to post here the figure you mentioned in
> >>> your
> >>>>> message, page 69 of your book?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Martin
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss
> >>>>> matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that
> >> my
> >>>>> partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually
> >>> with
> >>>>> the feeling that this also applies to myself” (Malinowski, 1930)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jan 29, 2018, at 10:24 AM, Jonathan Tudge <jrtudge@uncg.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>> Hi, Mike,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There are a couple of problems with the 2005 book.  One is that the
> >>>>> papers
> >>>>>> are drawn from UB's writings from the 1970s to the early part of
> this
> >>>>>> century.  As is true of Vygotsky's writings (and probably any
> >> theorist
> >>>>> who
> >>>>>> wrote over a significant span of time) it's really important to know
> >>> the
> >>>>>> date of publication.  The other problem is that at least one of the
> >>>>>> chapters is incomplete, and there are errors in at least one other.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As for the concentric circles or the matrioshka--they're both
> >> excellent
> >>>>>> examples of how powerful metaphors can go powerfully wrong!  Both
> are
> >>>>>> utterly misleading, in that they really focus attention on the
> >>> different
> >>>>>> layers of context (and even then don't make sense--the mesosystem
> >>>>> consists
> >>>>>> of overlapping circles, as in a Venn diagram).  Nonetheless, you're
> >>>>>> right--UB continued to use the metaphor in his final publications.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> However, his theory really developed a lot from the 1970s onwards
> >> (see
> >>>>> Rosa
> >>>>>> and Tudge, 2013; Tudge, 2013), and from the early 1990s onwards
> >>> "proximal
> >>>>>> processes" were the centerpiece of his Process-Person-Context-Time
> >>> (PPCT)
> >>>>>> model.  These are essentially the everyday activities in which
> >>> developing
> >>>>>> people engage, and they always and only occur in microsystems.
> >>> However,
> >>>>>> what goes on in microsystems is always influenced by (a) the person
> >>>>>> characteristics of the developing individuals of interest and those
> >> of
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>> others with whom they interact, (b) the characteristics of the
> >> context,
> >>>>>> both proximal (as in the nature of the microsystem in which those
> >>>>>> activities are occurring) and distal (the macrosystem, which for him
> >>> was
> >>>>>> culture, whether considered at the level of society or
> within-society
> >>>>>> cultural groups), and (c) time, which includes both the need to
> study
> >>>>> over
> >>>>>> time (longitudinally) and in time (the prevailing social, economic,
> >> and
> >>>>>> political climate).    A graphic representation that better reflects
> >>> his
> >>>>>> developed position than the concentric circles can be found in Tudge
> >>>>>> (2008), on page 69.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I actually think that he rather dropped the ball on culture,
> >>>>>> unfortunately.  I really like his writings on this in his 1979 book
> >> and
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>> his 1989 (or 1992) chapter on ecological systems theory.  Reading
> his
> >>>>> 1998
> >>>>>> (or 2006) handbook chapters you'll find virtually no mention of the
> >>>>> impact
> >>>>>> of culture (or macrosystem) despite drawing on Steinberg et al.'s
> >>>>> research
> >>>>>> on adolescents from different racial/ethnic groups.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Don't feel bad, though, if you have always just thought of
> >>>>> Bronfenbrenner's
> >>>>>> theory as one of concentric circles of context--you're no different
> >> in
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>> regard from just about everyone who has published an undergrad
> >> textbook
> >>>>> on
> >>>>>> human development, not to mention a majority of scholars who have
> >> said
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>> they've used UB's theory as foundational for their research (see
> >> Tudge
> >>> et
> >>>>>> al., 2009, 2016).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If anyone would like a copy of any of these papers, just send me a
> >>>>> private
> >>>>>> message to jrtudge@uncg.edu
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>  - Tudge, J. R. H. (2008). *The everyday lives of young children:
> >>>>>>  Culture, class, and child rearing in diverse societies.* New York:
> >>>>>>  Cambridge University Press.
> >>>>>>  - Tudge, J. R. H., Mokrova, I., Hatfield, B., & Karnik, R. B.
> >> (2009).
> >>>>>>  Uses and misuses of Bronfenbrenner’s bioecological theory of human
> >>>>>>  development. *Journal of Family Theory and Review, 1*(4), 198-210.
> >>>>>>  - Rosa, E. M., & Tudge, J. R. H. (2013). Urie Bronfenbrenner’s
> >> theory
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>  human development: Its evolution from ecology to bioecology.
> >> *Journal
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>  Family Theory and Review, 5*(6), 243–258. DOI:10.1111/jftr.12022
> >>>>>>  - Tudge, J. R. H. (2013). Urie Bronfenbrenner. In Heather
> Montgomery
> >>>>>>  (Ed.), *Oxford bibliographies on line: Childhood studies*. New
> York:
> >>>>>>  Oxford University Press.
> >>>>>>  - Tudge, J. R. H., Payir, A., Merçon-Vargas, E. A., Cao, H., Liang,
> >>> Y.,
> >>>>>>  Li, J., & O’Brien, L. T. (2016). Still misused after all these
> >> years?
> >>> A
> >>>>>>  re-evaluation of the uses of Bronfenbrenner’s bioecological theory
> >> of
> >>>>> human
> >>>>>>  development. *Journal of Family Theory and Review*, *8,* 427–445.
> >> doi:
> >>>>>>  10.1111/jftr.12165.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jon
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jonathan Tudge
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Professor
> >>>>>> Office: 155 Stone
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Our work on gratitude: http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A new book just published: Tudge, J. & Freitas, L. (Eds.) Developing
> >>>>>> gratitude in children and adolescents
> >>>>>> <https://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge/books/dev-
> >>>>> gratitude-in-children-and-adolescents-flyer.pdf>,
> >>>>>> Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> My web site:http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Mailing address:
> >>>>>> 248 Stone Building
> >>>>>> Department of Human Development and Family Studies
> >>>>>> PO Box 26170
> >>>>>> The University of North Carolina at Greensboro
> >>>>>> Greensboro, NC 27402-6170
> >>>>>> USA
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> phone (336) 223-6181
> >>>>>> fax   (336) 334-5076
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 6:20 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Jon --
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Nice to see your voice!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I only have Urie's 2005 collection, *Making Human Beings Human, *to
> >>>>> hand. I
> >>>>>>> checked it out
> >>>>>>> to see if the terms activity and context appeared there. Only sort
> >> of!
> >>>>>>> Activity is in the index, but context is not (!). I attach two
> pages
> >>>>> from
> >>>>>>> the book for those interested (and able to read my amateur
> >>>>>>> photos). Here it seems that activity and context coincide at the
> >> micro
> >>>>>>> level, but perhaps only there?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Concerning embedded circles and context. It turns out that the
> >> person
> >>>>> who
> >>>>>>> induced Sheila and me to write a textbook on human development was
> >> U.
> >>>>>>> Bronfenbrenner. And this same U.B. discussed with us how to
> >> represent
> >>>>> his
> >>>>>>> perspective circa 1985, pretty early in the task of writing the
> >> first
> >>>>>>> edition. His use of matroshki (embedded dolls) as a metaphor and
> his
> >>>>>>> rhetoric at the time (and in 2005 as well) invites
> >>>>>>> a concentric circles representation. We discussed other ways of
> >> trying
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>> represent the idea and he
> >>>>>>> said that our representation came as close as he could figure out.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In the 2005 book he refers to my work as combining a Vygotskian
> >> notion
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>> context with an anthropological one (p. 126), and uses the term
> >>>>> "ecological
> >>>>>>> context." I assume that most of my Russian colleagues would argue
> >> that
> >>>>> LSV
> >>>>>>> used the concept of "social situation of development," not context.
> >> I
> >>>>> have
> >>>>>>> no idea how he would respond to Yrjo's declaration that the
> activity
> >>> is
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>> context, but it does not seem too far off from what is written on
> >> the
> >>>>> pages
> >>>>>>> attached.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Perhaps someone on xmca who is skilled at searching texts in
> >> cyrillic
> >>>>> could
> >>>>>>> search for his use of the term, context. I have always been curious
> >>>>> about
> >>>>>>> what such a search would turn up, but lack the skill
> >>>>>>> to carry out the query.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And perhaps you have written something about the mistake of
> >>> interpreting
> >>>>>>> U.B.'s notion of contexts using embedded circles we could learn
> >> from??
> >>>>>>> Certainly the passages on p. 46 remind me of the work of Hedegaard
> >> and
> >>>>>>> Fleer, who also draw upon U.B.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> mike
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> <PPCT (Tudge, 2008, p. 69).pptx>
> >>>
> >
>
>