[Xmca-l] Re: Bronfennbrenner discussion

[Andy Blunden]

Mike, I have never been a reader of Bronfennbrenner, so my
comments may be immaterial here and I am happy if you and
others simply let them go through to the 'keeper (i.e.,
catcher).

You will recall that in my "Interdisciplinary" book I
appreciated your work, but criticised it for your claim to
include "context" in the "unit of analysis" on the basis
that "context" was an "open ended totality" and to include
it in the "unit of analysis" was to destroy the very idea of
a "unit."

A point of agreement between us though has been the need for
what we both call a "meso-level" unit between the individual
action and the world, and that my use of "project" to name
this meso-level unit, and that the 5thD project was such a
unit, persisting for more than an individual's lifetime and
escaping the control of the founder, but yet falling short
of macro-level units like the economy, science, the nation, etc.

Yjro is quite right when he said "the context is the
activity,", or rather "the activities." "The activity" is of
course the project. But here Yrjo is being true to analysis
by units. He is suggesting that the world is best conceived
as being made up of activities (I would say "projects").

To claim to include the "context" (which as you know means
"the world") *in* the unit which makes up the world, is the
same logical fallacy as asking whether "I always lie" is a
lie, and destroy the whole point of analysis by units, which
is to approach understanding infinite totalities by means of
little things that you can grasp, which none the less
characterise the whole. This unit, projects, is mediating
between the individual action and the world.

The problem is, I think, Yrjo's redefinition of "unit of
analysis" as (according to some of his students) "the unit
to be analysed," which I characterise as that list you make
up, of everything you're going to put in your suitcase,
which you might need on your journey. This was *not*
Vygotsky's idea, or that of Goethe, Hegel or Marx.

Whatever the problem, what happens depends on the context.
How do you conceive of the context? by units. The context is
a totality not part of a unit.

:)

Andy

------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 31/01/2018 9:45 AM, mike cole wrote:
> Hi Jon-
>
>      There are obviously a ton of issues to discuss in your article. I
> guess that my paper on using his ideas as part of the process of designing
> activities for kids in university-community partnerships is
> an example of inappropriate mis-appropriations. I'm not sure.  If I need a
> defense its that I thought the ideas as I understood them useful, but I was
> not testing his formulations in the same way you are concerned to do, but
> using (some of) them for planning, analysis, and interpretation.
>
>     While trying to sort that out, I'll just make a couple of observations.
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 5:17 PM, Jonathan Tudge <jrtudge@uncg.edu> wrote:
>
>> Yes, Martin, there always is culture within the microsystem--it's the only
>> place in which culture is experienced.  Microsystems are always embedded
>> within culture (I'd add always within multiple cultures, but I don't think
>> that Urie ever wrote that).
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> Jonathan Tudge
>>
>> Professor
>> Office: 155 Stone
>>
>> Our work on gratitude: http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/
>>
>> A new book just published: Tudge, J. & Freitas, L. (Eds.) Developing
>> gratitude in children and adolescents
>> <https://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge/books/dev-gratitude-
>> in-children-and-adolescents-flyer.pdf>,
>> Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press
>>
>> My web site:http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge
>>
>> Mailing address:
>> 248 Stone Building
>> Department of Human Development and Family Studies
>> PO Box 26170
>> The University of North Carolina at Greensboro
>> Greensboro, NC 27402-6170
>> USA
>>
>> phone (336) 223-6181
>> fax   (336) 334-5076
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 7:10 PM, Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Wow, very graphic!  At first I thought my microsystem had exploded!  :)
>>>
>>> The 20,000 dollar question for me has always been, why is culture in the
>>> macrosystem? Is there no culture in my here-&-now interactions with other
>>> people? (Well, perhaps in my case not!)
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jan 29, 2018, at 6:34 PM, Jonathan Tudge <jrtudge@uncg.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greetings, Martin,
>>>>
>>>> I hope that this works (taken from a powerpoint presentation).
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Jon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>> Jonathan Tudge
>>>>
>>>> Professor
>>>> Office: 155 Stone
>>>>
>>>> Our work on gratitude: http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/
>>>>
>>>> A new book just published: Tudge, J. & Freitas, L. (Eds.) Developing
>>>> gratitude in children and adolescents
>>>> <https://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge/books/dev-
>>> gratitude-in-children-and-adolescents-flyer.pdf>,
>>>> Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press
>>>>
>>>> My web site:http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge
>>>>
>>>> Mailing address:
>>>> 248 Stone Building
>>>> Department of Human Development and Family Studies
>>>> PO Box 26170
>>>> The University of North Carolina at Greensboro
>>>> Greensboro, NC 27402-6170
>>>> USA
>>>>
>>>> phone (336) 223-6181
>>>> fax   (336) 334-5076
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 6:22 PM, Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Jon,
>>>>>
>>>>> Would it be possible for you to post here the figure you mentioned in
>>> your
>>>>> message, page 69 of your book?
>>>>>
>>>>> Martin
>>>>>
>>>>> "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss
>>>>> matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that
>> my
>>>>> partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually
>>> with
>>>>> the feeling that this also applies to myself” (Malinowski, 1930)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 29, 2018, at 10:24 AM, Jonathan Tudge <jrtudge@uncg.edu>
>> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi, Mike,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are a couple of problems with the 2005 book.  One is that the
>>>>> papers
>>>>>> are drawn from UB's writings from the 1970s to the early part of this
>>>>>> century.  As is true of Vygotsky's writings (and probably any
>> theorist
>>>>> who
>>>>>> wrote over a significant span of time) it's really important to know
>>> the
>>>>>> date of publication.  The other problem is that at least one of the
>>>>>> chapters is incomplete, and there are errors in at least one other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the concentric circles or the matrioshka--they're both
>> excellent
>>>>>> examples of how powerful metaphors can go powerfully wrong!  Both are
>>>>>> utterly misleading, in that they really focus attention on the
>>> different
>>>>>> layers of context (and even then don't make sense--the mesosystem
>>>>> consists
>>>>>> of overlapping circles, as in a Venn diagram).  Nonetheless, you're
>>>>>> right--UB continued to use the metaphor in his final publications.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, his theory really developed a lot from the 1970s onwards
>> (see
>>>>> Rosa
>>>>>> and Tudge, 2013; Tudge, 2013), and from the early 1990s onwards
>>> "proximal
>>>>>> processes" were the centerpiece of his Process-Person-Context-Time
>>> (PPCT)
>>>>>> model.  These are essentially the everyday activities in which
>>> developing
>>>>>> people engage, and they always and only occur in microsystems.
>>> However,
>>>>>> what goes on in microsystems is always influenced by (a) the person
>>>>>> characteristics of the developing individuals of interest and those
>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>>> others with whom they interact, (b) the characteristics of the
>> context,
>>>>>> both proximal (as in the nature of the microsystem in which those
>>>>>> activities are occurring) and distal (the macrosystem, which for him
>>> was
>>>>>> culture, whether considered at the level of society or within-society
>>>>>> cultural groups), and (c) time, which includes both the need to study
>>>>> over
>>>>>> time (longitudinally) and in time (the prevailing social, economic,
>> and
>>>>>> political climate).    A graphic representation that better reflects
>>> his
>>>>>> developed position than the concentric circles can be found in Tudge
>>>>>> (2008), on page 69.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I actually think that he rather dropped the ball on culture,
>>>>>> unfortunately.  I really like his writings on this in his 1979 book
>> and
>>>>> in
>>>>>> his 1989 (or 1992) chapter on ecological systems theory.  Reading his
>>>>> 1998
>>>>>> (or 2006) handbook chapters you'll find virtually no mention of the
>>>>> impact
>>>>>> of culture (or macrosystem) despite drawing on Steinberg et al.'s
>>>>> research
>>>>>> on adolescents from different racial/ethnic groups.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't feel bad, though, if you have always just thought of
>>>>> Bronfenbrenner's
>>>>>> theory as one of concentric circles of context--you're no different
>> in
>>>>> that
>>>>>> regard from just about everyone who has published an undergrad
>> textbook
>>>>> on
>>>>>> human development, not to mention a majority of scholars who have
>> said
>>>>> that
>>>>>> they've used UB's theory as foundational for their research (see
>> Tudge
>>> et
>>>>>> al., 2009, 2016).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If anyone would like a copy of any of these papers, just send me a
>>>>> private
>>>>>> message to jrtudge@uncg.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  - Tudge, J. R. H. (2008). *The everyday lives of young children:
>>>>>>  Culture, class, and child rearing in diverse societies.* New York:
>>>>>>  Cambridge University Press.
>>>>>>  - Tudge, J. R. H., Mokrova, I., Hatfield, B., & Karnik, R. B.
>> (2009).
>>>>>>  Uses and misuses of Bronfenbrenner’s bioecological theory of human
>>>>>>  development. *Journal of Family Theory and Review, 1*(4), 198-210.
>>>>>>  - Rosa, E. M., & Tudge, J. R. H. (2013). Urie Bronfenbrenner’s
>> theory
>>>>> of
>>>>>>  human development: Its evolution from ecology to bioecology.
>> *Journal
>>>>> of
>>>>>>  Family Theory and Review, 5*(6), 243–258. DOI:10.1111/jftr.12022
>>>>>>  - Tudge, J. R. H. (2013). Urie Bronfenbrenner. In Heather Montgomery
>>>>>>  (Ed.), *Oxford bibliographies on line: Childhood studies*. New York:
>>>>>>  Oxford University Press.
>>>>>>  - Tudge, J. R. H., Payir, A., Merçon-Vargas, E. A., Cao, H., Liang,
>>> Y.,
>>>>>>  Li, J., & O’Brien, L. T. (2016). Still misused after all these
>> years?
>>> A
>>>>>>  re-evaluation of the uses of Bronfenbrenner’s bioecological theory
>> of
>>>>> human
>>>>>>  development. *Journal of Family Theory and Review*, *8,* 427–445.
>> doi:
>>>>>>  10.1111/jftr.12165.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jonathan Tudge
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Professor
>>>>>> Office: 155 Stone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our work on gratitude: http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A new book just published: Tudge, J. & Freitas, L. (Eds.) Developing
>>>>>> gratitude in children and adolescents
>>>>>> <https://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge/books/dev-
>>>>> gratitude-in-children-and-adolescents-flyer.pdf>,
>>>>>> Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My web site:http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mailing address:
>>>>>> 248 Stone Building
>>>>>> Department of Human Development and Family Studies
>>>>>> PO Box 26170
>>>>>> The University of North Carolina at Greensboro
>>>>>> Greensboro, NC 27402-6170
>>>>>> USA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> phone (336) 223-6181
>>>>>> fax   (336) 334-5076
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 6:20 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Jon --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nice to see your voice!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I only have Urie's 2005 collection, *Making Human Beings Human, *to
>>>>> hand. I
>>>>>>> checked it out
>>>>>>> to see if the terms activity and context appeared there. Only sort
>> of!
>>>>>>> Activity is in the index, but context is not (!). I attach two pages
>>>>> from
>>>>>>> the book for those interested (and able to read my amateur
>>>>>>> photos). Here it seems that activity and context coincide at the
>> micro
>>>>>>> level, but perhaps only there?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Concerning embedded circles and context. It turns out that the
>> person
>>>>> who
>>>>>>> induced Sheila and me to write a textbook on human development was
>> U.
>>>>>>> Bronfenbrenner. And this same U.B. discussed with us how to
>> represent
>>>>> his
>>>>>>> perspective circa 1985, pretty early in the task of writing the
>> first
>>>>>>> edition. His use of matroshki (embedded dolls) as a metaphor and his
>>>>>>> rhetoric at the time (and in 2005 as well) invites
>>>>>>> a concentric circles representation. We discussed other ways of
>> trying
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> represent the idea and he
>>>>>>> said that our representation came as close as he could figure out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the 2005 book he refers to my work as combining a Vygotskian
>> notion
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> context with an anthropological one (p. 126), and uses the term
>>>>> "ecological
>>>>>>> context." I assume that most of my Russian colleagues would argue
>> that
>>>>> LSV
>>>>>>> used the concept of "social situation of development," not context.
>> I
>>>>> have
>>>>>>> no idea how he would respond to Yrjo's declaration that the activity
>>> is
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> context, but it does not seem too far off from what is written on
>> the
>>>>> pages
>>>>>>> attached.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps someone on xmca who is skilled at searching texts in
>> cyrillic
>>>>> could
>>>>>>> search for his use of the term, context. I have always been curious
>>>>> about
>>>>>>> what such a search would turn up, but lack the skill
>>>>>>> to carry out the query.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And perhaps you have written something about the mistake of
>>> interpreting
>>>>>>> U.B.'s notion of contexts using embedded circles we could learn
>> from??
>>>>>>> Certainly the passages on p. 46 remind me of the work of Hedegaard
>> and
>>>>>>> Fleer, who also draw upon U.B.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> <PPCT (Tudge, 2008, p. 69).pptx>
>>>
>