[Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three

[Huw Lloyd]

Quite so, Andy.  But what concept is being used when someone refers to
their "teacher", "manager" or "supervisor".  These institutionalised terms
have little to do with their authentic/innocent meanings.  "Team lead" is
surely on the way too, and presumably "mentor" is under assault (to the
degree of its co-option in an institution).  :)

Huw

On 24 November 2015 at 23:57, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> "Not have anything to do with" would not be quite right in my view. I have
> always believed that the study of a word's etymology sheds light on the
> concept it names, but mainly because it brings into relief the genesis of
> the concept itself and its interconnections - puts the frame back into the
> movie.
> But to say that the "original" meaning of a word is the "true" meaning of
> the word (or other symbol or practice) is called "the genetic fallacy."
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
> Andy
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> On 25/11/2015 9:11 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>
>> Now I am confused.  How could a word's meaning not have anything to do
>> with
>> etymology?  :)
>>
>> Huw
>>
>> On 24 November 2015 at 21:49, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>
>> The word, pickle, never occurred to me, Tom. Kisli I immediately equated
>>> with sour. It was the kraut part that I was opaque. That part of my
>>> example
>>> had nothing to do with etymology, Huw. My wife reminded me of it when I
>>> reported the first part.
>>>
>>> So complicated to communicate about such experiences. And of course open
>>> to
>>> multiple interpretations.  Still, I like mine...of course! :-)
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 24, 2015, Tom Richardson <
>>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> To butt in  again - surely 'sauer' also means 'acidic' - pickled cabbage?
>>>> Tom
>>>> Middlesbrough UK
>>>>
>>>> On 24 November 2015 at 16:31, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't have thought that a prior meaning blocks the path to the
>>>>>
>>>> primary
>>>>
>>>>> meaning necessarily.  The norm, it seems, is that we are unaware of the
>>>>> etymological roots of words.  And that unless one was practiced at
>>>>> questioning the structure of the word forms then a discovery is not
>>>>>
>>>> really
>>>>
>>>>> blocked as so much as never sought in the first place.  Personally, it
>>>>> seems to me that when I enquire into an etymological meaning and find
>>>>>
>>>> it
>>>
>>>> consonant with a a more pervasive (though little understood)
>>>>>
>>>> understanding,
>>>>
>>>>> I take some temporary satisfaction in one more accounting in the
>>>>>
>>>> reckoning
>>>>
>>>>> against our stupid society.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for (sauer)kraut, I think we could say the same for the more
>>>>> contemporary neo-liberal.  Both terms point back to the speaker (and
>>>>> artificer) of the word's confusions and sour-grapes which are projected
>>>>> onto the protagonist  -- such is war and politics.
>>>>>
>>>>> Huw
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 24 November 2015 at 06:17, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>>>>
>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You've got a good head on your shoulders, Mike!
>>>>>> andy
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 24/11/2015 3:25 PM, mike cole wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oops, i should have proof read before rushing off. here is a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> slightly
>>>
>>>> cleaner text. Same ideas. :-)
>>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> said,
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Lets make that a part of the repertoire and my mind drifted to a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> search
>>>>
>>>>> for other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Shi,"
>>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>>
>>>>>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sheila
>>>>
>>>>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> good
>>>>
>>>>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then I
>>>>>
>>>>>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Russian.
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to
>>>>>>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> soup,
>>>>>
>>>>>> or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> myself,
>>>
>>>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never
>>>>>>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> even
>>>>
>>>>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> course
>>>
>>>> say
>>>>>
>>>>>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from
>>>>>>> remembering the delicious smell of schi?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My strong hunch is that the answer lies with the fact that I
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> experienced
>>>>
>>>>> WWII as a preschooler who became obsessed with the war. All during
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> my
>>>
>>>> boyood I read countless fictional and historical accounts of the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> war.
>>>
>>>> The,
>>>>>
>>>>>> and in later years that war was depicted over and over again in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> films
>>>
>>>> from
>>>>>
>>>>>> the Guns of Navaronne to Private Ryan's war in a manner that fit
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> with
>>>
>>>> my
>>>>
>>>>> childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, the Wermacht --
>>>>>>> "krauts."
>>>>>>> To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have retained this
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> primitive,
>>>>>
>>>>>> early, persistent, organizing image.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> shi,
>>>
>>>> I
>>>>
>>>>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>
>>>> knowledge that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Odd how mediation works.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And odd too, that my name is Cole.  If you look in the dictionary
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> for
>>>
>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard
>>>>>>> family,including many
>>>>>>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*.......
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> the following observations might be of interest. I wonder if others
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> have
>>>>
>>>>> had similar experiences. The dynamics of language and the paths of
>>>>>>>> mediation seem to be clear to me, but maybe that is just an
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> illusory
>>>
>>>> artifact of reporting on introspective reports.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> what, as Dr. Matusov is fond of asking, do you think?
>>>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>    Two paths of mediated thought through three languages.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> said,
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Lets make that a part of the repetoir and my mind drifted to a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> search
>>>>
>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Shi," I
>>>
>>>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sheila
>>>>
>>>>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> good
>>>>
>>>>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then
>>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into
>>>>>>>> Russian.
>>>>>>>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to
>>>
>>>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cabbage
>>>
>>>> soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to
>>>>>>>> myself,
>>>>>>>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> never
>>>
>>>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> even
>>>>
>>>>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> course
>>>
>>>> say
>>>>>
>>>>>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from
>>>>>>>> remembering the delicious smell of schi?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My strong hunch is that, because I experienced WWII as a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> preschooler
>>>
>>>> who
>>>>>
>>>>>> became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read fictional
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>> historical accounts of the war. In later years that war was
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> depicted
>>>
>>>> over
>>>>>
>>>>>> and over again in films from the Guns of Navarone to Private Ryan's
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> war
>>>>
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>> SS,
>>>>>>>> the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> shi, I
>>>>
>>>>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>
>>>> knowledge that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbabe.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Odd how mediation works.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And odd too, that my name is Cole.  If you look in the dictionary
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> for
>>>
>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard
>>>>>>>> family,including many
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*.......
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ​darn!​
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> an
>>>
>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
>>>
>>>
>