[Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three

[Andy Blunden]

"Not have anything to do with" would not be quite right in 
my view. I have always believed that the study of a word's 
etymology sheds light on the concept it names, but mainly 
because it brings into relief the genesis of the concept 
itself and its interconnections - puts the frame back into 
the movie.
But to say that the "original" meaning of a word is the 
"true" meaning of the word (or other symbol or practice) is 
called "the genetic fallacy."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
On 25/11/2015 9:11 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
> Now I am confused.  How could a word's meaning not have anything to do with
> etymology?  :)
>
> Huw
>
> On 24 November 2015 at 21:49, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
>> The word, pickle, never occurred to me, Tom. Kisli I immediately equated
>> with sour. It was the kraut part that I was opaque. That part of my example
>> had nothing to do with etymology, Huw. My wife reminded me of it when I
>> reported the first part.
>>
>> So complicated to communicate about such experiences. And of course open to
>> multiple interpretations.  Still, I like mine...of course! :-)
>> Mike
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 24, 2015, Tom Richardson <
>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> To butt in  again - surely 'sauer' also means 'acidic' - pickled cabbage?
>>> Tom
>>> Middlesbrough UK
>>>
>>> On 24 November 2015 at 16:31, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wouldn't have thought that a prior meaning blocks the path to the
>>> primary
>>>> meaning necessarily.  The norm, it seems, is that we are unaware of the
>>>> etymological roots of words.  And that unless one was practiced at
>>>> questioning the structure of the word forms then a discovery is not
>>> really
>>>> blocked as so much as never sought in the first place.  Personally, it
>>>> seems to me that when I enquire into an etymological meaning and find
>> it
>>>> consonant with a a more pervasive (though little understood)
>>> understanding,
>>>> I take some temporary satisfaction in one more accounting in the
>>> reckoning
>>>> against our stupid society.
>>>>
>>>> As for (sauer)kraut, I think we could say the same for the more
>>>> contemporary neo-liberal.  Both terms point back to the speaker (and
>>>> artificer) of the word's confusions and sour-grapes which are projected
>>>> onto the protagonist  -- such is war and politics.
>>>>
>>>> Huw
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 24 November 2015 at 06:17, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>> You've got a good head on your shoulders, Mike!
>>>>> andy
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>>>
>>>>> On 24/11/2015 3:25 PM, mike cole wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Oops, i should have proof read before rushing off. here is a
>> slightly
>>>>>> cleaner text. Same ideas. :-)
>>>>>> mike
>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I
>>>> said,
>>>>>> "Lets make that a part of the repertoire and my mind drifted to a
>>> search
>>>>>> for other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time.
>>> "Shi,"
>>>> I
>>>>>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi"
>>> Sheila
>>>>>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has
>>> good
>>>>>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like."
>>>> Then I
>>>>>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into
>>>> Russian.
>>>>>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to
>>>>>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage
>>>> soup,
>>>>>> or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to
>> myself,
>>>>>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never
>>>>>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage,
>>> even
>>>>>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of
>> course
>>>> say
>>>>>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from
>>>>>> remembering the delicious smell of schi?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My strong hunch is that the answer lies with the fact that I
>>> experienced
>>>>>> WWII as a preschooler who became obsessed with the war. All during
>> my
>>>>>> boyood I read countless fictional and historical accounts of the
>> war.
>>>> The,
>>>>>> and in later years that war was depicted over and over again in
>> films
>>>> from
>>>>>> the Guns of Navaronne to Private Ryan's war in a manner that fit
>> with
>>> my
>>>>>> childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, the Wermacht --
>>>>>> "krauts."
>>>>>> To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have retained this
>>>> primitive,
>>>>>> early, persistent, organizing image.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of
>> shi,
>>> I
>>>>>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating
>> the
>>>>>> knowledge that
>>>>>>
>>>>>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Odd how mediation works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And odd too, that my name is Cole.  If you look in the dictionary
>> for
>>>> the
>>>>>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard
>>>>>> family,including many
>>>>>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*.......
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>>> the following observations might be of interest. I wonder if others
>>> have
>>>>>>> had similar experiences. The dynamics of language and the paths of
>>>>>>> mediation seem to be clear to me, but maybe that is just an
>> illusory
>>>>>>> artifact of reporting on introspective reports.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> what, as Dr. Matusov is fond of asking, do you think?
>>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>    Two paths of mediated thought through three languages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I
>>>> said,
>>>>>>> "Lets make that a part of the repetoir and my mind drifted to a
>>> search
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time.
>> "Shi," I
>>>>>>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi"
>>> Sheila
>>>>>>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has
>>> good
>>>>>>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like."
>>>> Then
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into
>>>>>>> Russian.
>>>>>>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli,
>> to
>>>>>>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual
>> cabbage
>>>>>>> soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to
>>>>>>> myself,
>>>>>>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow
>> never
>>>>>>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage,
>>> even
>>>>>>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of
>> course
>>>> say
>>>>>>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from
>>>>>>> remembering the delicious smell of schi?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My strong hunch is that, because I experienced WWII as a
>> preschooler
>>>> who
>>>>>>> became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read fictional
>>> and
>>>>>>> historical accounts of the war. In later years that war was
>> depicted
>>>> over
>>>>>>> and over again in films from the Guns of Navarone to Private Ryan's
>>> war
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers,
>>> the
>>>>>>> SS,
>>>>>>> the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems
>>> to
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of
>>> shi, I
>>>>>>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating
>> the
>>>>>>> knowledge that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbabe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Odd how mediation works.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And odd too, that my name is Cole.  If you look in the dictionary
>> for
>>>> the
>>>>>>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard
>>>>>>> family,including many
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*.......
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ​darn!​
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with
>> an
>>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
>>