[Xmca-l] Re: CoExperiencing as a Philosophy of Practice.

[Huw Lloyd]

>From my observations, what we generally have are departments basing their
work on either discourse (description) or correlative measures.  These are
inadequate to the job.  From what I can gather, this is primarily due to
administration.

Best,
Huw



On 8 November 2015 at 03:15, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> I think that the traditional arrangement of departments and research
> centres is not in itself problematic. It does require an openness to
> individual's having diverse CVs and arguments drawing on different
> traditions. Wilhelm Wundt would hopefully still be able to get a job in a
> Psychology department.
> Andy
> ------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> On 8/11/2015 1:37 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>
> And a concurrent albeit perhaps more down-to-earth consideration is how is
> such a research body administered?  Is that why Andy is referring to the
> arts, particularly?
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
> On 8 November 2015 at 02:33, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From what I can discern, the convergence of units here make for an
>> interesting problem.  It seems it would be something like "the
>> consciousness of goal formation".
>>
>> Best,
>> Huw
>>
>> On 7 November 2015 at 02:04, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>
>>> and I think there is a dire need for such a convergence as well.
>>> One of the contributing factors to the anti-science currents which can
>>> lead to great medical, political and social problems is antipathy to one
>>> particular, dominant *style* of science, and I think entanglement between
>>> science and the arts promotes a broader feel for different styles of
>>> science.
>>> Andy
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>
>>> On 7/11/2015 12:15 PM, mike cole wrote:
>>>
>>>> Larry, I strongly believe that there is a convergence of humanities and
>>>> social/behavioral sciences going on as one thread of academic discourse
>>>> congenial to CHAT. A real good location for pursuing it is. The Comm
>>>> dept
>>>> at UCSD, if we add the arts as part off the mix.
>>>> That's my story at least. :-)
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, November 6, 2015, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I thought I would add the last paragraph of Alex Kozulin's review of
>>>>> Vasiliyuk's book.
>>>>>
>>>>> By choosing the literary model of human experiencing, Vasilyuk affirms
>>>>> his
>>>>> adherence to the humanistic, rather than scientific approach to human
>>>>> psychology. His work can also be seen as a blueprint for the future
>>>>> convergence of humanistic psychology with Vygotsky’s
>>>>> cultural-historical
>>>>> theory of human development .
>>>>>
>>>>> This premonition that some  new convergence is on the horizon. The
>>>>> coming
>>>>> intersection forming a hybrid character.
>>>>> Do others agree that we may be moving in the direction of a *literary
>>>>> model*?
>>>>> The discussion of White's narrative approach [using Bruner's notion of
>>>>> scaffolding] may be an example.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Vasilyuk's key understanding as expressed in his concept of
>>>>> consciousness
>>>>> that has two essential aspects [and their relations]
>>>>> *stratigraphy* as layered registers of depth or height. Each *layer*
>>>>> is a
>>>>> life-world.
>>>>> *structure* of the smallest molecule as unit of consciousness IS a
>>>>> *mental
>>>>> image*  A mental image having the structure of the two magnetic poles
>>>>> and
>>>>> the dynamic of consciousness moving within this dynamic *image*  like
>>>>> the
>>>>> flow of plasma.  Depth of layers AND mental images interact generating
>>>>> consciousness.
>>>>>
>>>>> Vasilyuk's philosophy of practice as 1st order word that is originating
>>>>> within the liminal spaces on the boundaries OF humanistic THEORY and
>>>>> cultural historical THEORY of human development.
>>>>>
>>>>> Consciousness as the originating site of meaning-GENERATION forming
>>>>> within
>>>>> co-experiencing *situations*.  In other words situated consciousness as
>>>>> working experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a fragment but does express a *tone*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:58 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com
>>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike, the declaration that cultural mediation [in particular the
>>>>>> symbolic
>>>>>> level] is a key element can put aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy
>>>>>> and turn to Vygotsky's own way of including this symbolic level of
>>>>>> coexperiencing. Listen for the implicit movement marking the felt
>>>>>> sense
>>>>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>> having *fallen away* from a *source* and then finding one's way back
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> *source* [and in this return entering *deeper* levels.  I am
>>>>>> referring to
>>>>>> page 62 of Vasiliyuk's article "Prayer Silence, Psychotherapy".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vygotsky is exploring  a *deeper* layer for experiencing suffering.
>>>>>> Not a
>>>>>> hedonistic flight from suffering, not masochistic consolation, not
>>>>>>
>>>>> routine
>>>>>
>>>>>> platitudes [always a silver lining] but a spiritual sublimation of
>>>>>>
>>>>> sorrow.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Elevating and deepening into the layer of experiencing the *source* by
>>>>>> transforming this suffering by return to the eternal.
>>>>>> Vygotsky images his life as *my star* in the heavens *marked* by
>>>>>> sorrow.
>>>>>> His personal life and his Jewish life *marked* by sorrow. BUT this
>>>>>> star
>>>>>>
>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>> IN THE HEAVENS.  So the meaning of suffering [the falling away from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> source] is not in fleeing from the suffering but in returning to the
>>>>>> *source* [the eternal, the deepest layer of consciousness] . The
>>>>>> meaning
>>>>>>
>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>> *found* in the ELEVATION of suffering, elevtion on the wing OF A
>>>>>> PRAYER
>>>>>>
>>>>> TO
>>>>>
>>>>>> GOD. The transformation of suffering IN GOD.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vygotsky's metaphor is a personal particular  *image* expressing a
>>>>>> deeply
>>>>>> felt layer of experience. But within the particular unique felt image
>>>>>>
>>>>> there
>>>>>
>>>>>> is a general [not universal] plot [mytheme] that is historically
>>>>>> traceable developing  symbolic cultural imaginary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The plot can shift what is *source* [God, sublime, the *self*] and
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> can be historically traced[including the work of experiencing the
>>>>>>
>>>>> authentic
>>>>>
>>>>>> true *self* in psychology].
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Suzanne Kirschner has traced these transformations in this myth from
>>>>>> religious origins, transformed within the Romantic movement, and
>>>>>> shifting
>>>>>> into psychological theories today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point I am offering is that Vygotsky as Vasilyuk his project was
>>>>>> touched by this mytheme. Peirce in his speculative musings, also was
>>>>>>
>>>>> pulled
>>>>>
>>>>>> into this mytheme.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not suggesting this plot is fundamental or foundational but the
>>>>>> yearning for this plot to be universal envelops and embodies us into
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> particular myth and is experienced as a deeply felt *truth*. It is
>>>>>> only
>>>>>>
>>>>> one
>>>>>
>>>>>> of the *key elements* but it is a significant one of the keys to the
>>>>>> philosophy of practice.
>>>>>> The shift to secular themes [such as naturalism] does not change the
>>>>>> underlying plot structure but does change the images that *have us*.
>>>>>> Vygotsky saw his *star* ELEVATED to the heavens that transforms
>>>>>> suffering
>>>>>> which is the experience existing within a symbolic truth,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:00 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>>>>> <javascript:;>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Larry--
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for your continuing explication of your reading of Vasiliuk.
>>>>>>> Putting
>>>>>>> aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy for a moment, I am totally
>>>>>>> behind
>>>>>>> the delaration
>>>>>>> that  *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT",
>>>>>>> plus
>>>>>>> co-experiencing as the necessary condition for that cultural
>>>>>>> mediation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Vasilyuk is developing the *philosophy of Practice* as a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> psychotechnical
>>>>>
>>>>>> *system*.
>>>>>>>> He says in his historical outline of the different *basic
>>>>>>>> foundations*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> which psychology has relied [from suggestibility to *becoming aware*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>> *emancipation* to reliance on learning  to reliance on experiencing to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> current reliance on experiencing [as existential/humanistic] which
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> intersecting with todays reliance on productively producing internal
>>>>>>>> psychological transformations oriented to enriching the meaning of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> being.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vasilyuk says the task exploring the changing reliances of
>>>>>>>> psychology
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> practice is not to describe the *factual* history of psychology and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> reliances of psychotherapy but to elicit the logic of history. In
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>
>>>>>> words to *listen* to the evolving IMPLICIT plot that gives meaning and
>>>>>>>> direction to the subsequent acts of the development of psychology.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (page
>>>>>
>>>>>> 11)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One of the key elements Vasilyuk identifies is the concept of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *cultural
>>>>>
>>>>>> mediation of experiences*. He says:
>>>>>>>> Historically cumulative experiencings with standard situations
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> crystallize
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> in various SYMBOLIC FORMS; when a person experiences crises, his
>>>>>>>> consciousness might get connected to these symbolic forms, an so the
>>>>>>>> process of experiencing, without losing its personality-oriented
>>>>>>>> uniqueness, gains ADDITIONAL DEPTH AND PRODUCTIVITY. (page 18).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is this additional depth and productivity as symbolic that
>>>>>>>> Vasilyuk
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> generating within his evolving implicit *plot* oriented to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> transforming
>>>>>
>>>>>> psychology in order to enrich the meaning of being.  This is also the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> theme
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vasilyuk is relying on in his other article *Prayer, Silence, and
>>>>>>>> Psychotherapy*. This is the living symbol of prayer on the boundary
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> experiencing and silence/stillness.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here is Vygotsky exploring the *depth* of symbolism in his own
>>>>>>>> words:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ophelia's tragedy [a personification] is exactly LIKE a lyrical
>>>>>>>> accompaniment, that towers over the entire play, which is full of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> dreadful torment of INEXPRESSIBILITY, of the most profound dark,
>>>>>>>> mysterious, and SACRED melodies that in some incomprehensible and
>>>>>>>> miraculous way REVEAL AND EMBODY what is most exciting, most
>>>>>>>> allusive,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> touchingly important, what is DEEPEST AND DARKEST, but what is most
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> tragic
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> that is OVERCOME and enlightened, and what IS MOST MYSTICAL in the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> entire
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> play. Thus tragedy turns into PRAYER .... as though with an
>>>>>>>> oblational
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> expiatory and PRAYERFUL light, it gives religious illumination to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> tragedy." (page 61 of Vasilyuk's article.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vasiliuk then comments: "No matter how much the devotees of Marxist
>>>>>>>> materialism try to conceal Vygotsky's religiosity from themselves
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> us,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> it is perfectly obvious that THESE words [LP -1st order words]
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> have been written by a person with deep personal EXPERIENCE with
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> prayer."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (page 61).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To sum up, I am MARKING [for orientation purposes]  the concept of
>>>>>>>> *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> coexperiencing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> psychotherapy AS philosophy of practice. I believe that the same
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *symbolic
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> gravity* can be expressed through changing images. The plot of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "falling
>>>>>
>>>>>> away from* and *returning to* can be expressed in multiple symbols
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> such
>>>>>
>>>>>> as turning away from God, turning away from the natural sublime,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> turning
>>>>>
>>>>>> away from one's true authentic self, These images are expressing
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *reliances* but are sharing the same symbolic plot as the cultural
>>>>>>>> mediation of experiencing. The IMPLICIT deepening of coexperience
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> now emerging in Russia since the 1980's that Vasilyuk is plotting
>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>
>>>>>> implicitly enveloped in this same mytheme of falling away from *the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> source*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and then the return to this *source.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The book *The Religious and Romantic Roots of Psychoanalysis* by
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suzanne
>>>>>
>>>>>> Kirschner has plotted this particular myth flowing through Western
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ways
>>>>>
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> experiencing the meaning of being. She is tracing the roots of the
>>>>>>>> emergence of Freudian psychoanalysis but it is the more general
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> philosophy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> of practice as including this KEY ELEMENT of cultural mediation as
>>>>>>>> deepening coexperiences that I am highlighting.
>>>>>>>> As Vasilyuk says: the task is to LISTEN FOR *the evolving IMPLICIT
>>>>>>>> plot that gives meaning and direction to the subsequent acts of the
>>>>>>>> *development* of psychology [including the KEY symbolic element that
>>>>>>>> *deepens* experience beyond the personal existential.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Larry
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
>>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>