[Xmca-l] Re: Education & Society (was Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy)

[Huw Lloyd]

"Under what conditions can such counter practices be implemented in school
settings?"

When understanding is valued more than certification.  This is Bozhovich's
"internal position" and Leontyev's "social standing" (understanding as true
generalisation).

I don't think this fits a traditional notion of social inequality either.
The majority of middle class practices are reliant on notational forms of
understanding.  Creative understanding is a minority undertaking within
"middle" classes -- creative accountancy, banking or lawyering aren't
traditionally a desirable outcome, hence their peripheral role in schools.

Social classes forced to deal with objective realities are in a better
situation for disproving the value of notational forms of understanding.
One might say that the "middle class" creatives have gone beyond mere
notational forms of knowing to re-engage with objective reality, but that
they are equally versed in notational forms albeit with a truer
understanding of their meanings.

In this sense, the traditional middle classes are equally impoverished.
However, they deal with their impoverishment by relying on working class
society to provide for their needs by keeping the world requiring more
effective ways of knowing at bay.  I doubt there are many families born in
poverty that would be willing to abandon their contact with that
objectivity.

Huw


On 28 March 2015 at 23:30, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:

> Huw-- Would it be possible to link your observation and conclusion to the
> question I was posing about Maisha's work? You wrote:....societies such as
> our do
> NOT provide schooling that provides a creative
> understanding, i.e.  schooling cannot deliver this true form of education
> under its manner of administration.  This is simply manifest in the
> dominant role (priority) of the reproduction of notation rather than
> genuine understanding, which is enforced by society (teaching to test on
> behalf of 'societal needs').
>
> A good deal of the ideology underpinning the generative activities
> occurring in community settings requires "true form of education" that run
> counter to the reproduction of existing relations of social inequality. So
> how and when and under what conditions can such counter practices be
> implemented in school settings? The belly of the beast?
>
> mike
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 8:42 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > The quote below is from El'konin's (1971) paper, Towards the problem of
> > stages in the mental development of children
> > <https://www.marxists.org/archive/elkonin/works/1971/stages.htm>.  This
> is
> > simply asserting that societies such as ours (UK/US/AUS etc, and Russian
> > too for this matter) do NOT provide schooling that provides a creative
> > understanding, i.e.  schooling cannot deliver this true form of education
> > under its manner of administration.  This is simply manifest in the
> > dominant role (priority) of the reproduction of notation rather than
> > genuine understanding, which is enforced by society (teaching to test on
> > behalf of 'societal needs').
> >
> > Note that this assertion is not saying that one _develops_ in a manner in
> > accordance with one's society (i.e. that different forms of society
> afford
> > different, but commensurate, forms of development).  Rather it is
> asserting
> > that development is prevented in certain modes of society.  The point,
> > again, is that development here is referring to structural change in the
> > cognitive capacity of the child/agent as a key component of developmental
> > phenomena.
> >
> > Huw
> >
> > "The correct solution of the problem of developmental periods will in
> large
> > measure determine the strategy employed in constructing a comprehensive
> > educational system for the coming generation in our country. The
> practical
> > significance of this problem will increase as we approach the point when
> we
> > must elaborate the principles for a unified public system of education
> > encompassing the entire period of childhood. We must emphasize the fact
> > that the construction of such a system in compliance with the laws of
> > developmental stages of childhood is possible only within a socialist
> > society; for it is only in such a society that has a maximum interest in
> > the full and harmonious development of the abilities of every one of its
> > members and, consequently, in the fullest possible use of the potential
> of
> > each developmental stage."
> >
> >
> >
> > On 23 March 2015 at 09:55, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Of course!
> > > a
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > *Andy Blunden*
> > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> > >
> > >
> > > Rod Parker-Rees wrote:
> > >
> > >> The system may work (more or less and more for some than others) but I
> > >> don't see how it could be described as 'finished', Andy. There is a
> > >> continuing, lively competition among groups of parents to identify
> > >> 'better', 'kinder' or just 'faster' ways of supporting their
> children's
> > >> development and a thriving market in books, classes, equipment etc. to
> > >> 'help' parents to do the right thing for their children. There is a
> lot
> > of
> > >> exploitation and misinformation mixed up in this but the continuing
> play
> > >> with different ways of doing things is probably beneficial in the
> longer
> > >> term as it leavens cultural practices - preventing them from
> solidifying
> > >> into a universally approved and prescribed practice which is good
> enough
> > >> for most.
> > >>
> > >> Rod
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
> > >> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> > >> Sent: 23 March 2015 00:40
> > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy
> > >>
> > >> I think that cultural forms of child-rearing and the corresponding
> > >> expectations placed upon the child have been developed by communities
> > over
> > >> centuries and part of that process is the collective experience of the
> > >> relevant practices. Doubtless all sorts of crazy practices have been
> > tried
> > >> out at different times, but if the children do not respond as
> expected,
> > the
> > >> idea is dropped or modified. I think this is the point at which the
> > >> biological limitations and predispositions of children comes in. But
> the
> > >> present-day child is presented with a finished, working system.
> > >> I seem to recall that Barbara Rogoff has written about this.
> > >> Andy
> > >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> *Andy Blunden*
> > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington
>