Hi Andy,
Dewey uses the phrase vital experience in Democracy and Education, and to a
certain extent in the essay Mind, Experience and Behavior, and I bet it can
be found other places (he may have been reluctant to use the phrase too much
because it was being used by other philosophers at the time for different
purposes, but I think it is really descriptive of what he was trying to get
across). For my money, based on what I have read (and there is a whole lot
I haven't) one of the best discussions on the difference between habit and
experience leading to recreating of society is in Human Nature and Conduct
and there is also Experience and Nature, but that is so damned hard.
Phillip Jackson wrote a really dense book just on the different versions of
the first chapter (Dewey actually wrote four!!). (One an interesting note
didn't Jackson just write a series on Hegel and education in Teachers
College Record that Mike forwarded recently. Can't remember for sure).
Michael
________________________________
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden
Sent: Sun 10/2/2011 10:04 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] varying definitions of perezhivanie
Have you got a reference for that, Michael?
Andy
Michael Glassman wrote:
Hi Larry, Andy, Michael, Mike,
I don't speak Russian and don't know perezhivanie that well, but just
from following the discussion I wonder if it is possible to see perezhivanie
in the same light as Dewey's vital experience. I think for Dewey there are
two types of experience, habit and vital experience (and the meaning I would
think comes more from the juxtaposition than the word itself). Experience
as habit (created through the larger social group many times) doesn't lead
to any change, you just going on doing the things you always do. Vital
experience forces you to confront a new problem, a new issue, that forces
you out of habit. The word that made me think of it was when Larry pointed
to Vasilyk suggesting working your way through impossibility as repair. Can
this be seen as the same thing as re-creation of social experience? Just a
thought.
Michael
________________________________
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden
Sent: Sun 10/2/2011 3:27 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] varying definitions of perezhivanie
Larry, just remember that Vygotsky says that a perezhivanie is a unit of
development, i.e., a cell which encloses all the essential features of
the development of ANY person. Transformative experiences don't have to
be Biblical in scope, but they do have to be such that you are "unable
to go on in the old way," so to speak.
Andy
Larry Purss wrote:
Hi Mike, Michael, and Andy
Mike, when I reflect on the experience(s) of a death of a spouse as a
situation of the IMPOSSIBILITY of living, of a disruption of life as
disorienting and without bearings, as grief and suffering with no sense
of
future or meaning this is more than an individual rupture of
"self-regulation" or internal disorientation. It is NOT merely internal
and
requiring the capacity for "differentiation" from the internal
suffering..
The overwhelming pain is a pain of LOSS of bearing within the world. All
the
familiar reference points are shattered.
Looking within for our bearings becomes IMPOSSIBLE because one's compass
points are shattered and the INscapes are barren deserts without meaning
or
purpose. Signs [semiotic containers] become emptied of meaning and
become
containers without content. The world has forsaken you. The "space of
reasons" fragments and the center does not hold [Yeats] This is a dark
night of the soul as the person is rudderless and adrift with no
direction
home.
This way of considering perezhivanie as "experience" is still adverbial
NOT
an entified entity. Experience IS movement and the various ways of
describing this "sensed" movement withIN the world as disoriented
shattered
movement that is directionless [with the center not holding] is not a
"description OF" an experience. It IS the experience. I'm using words
to
try to capture this movement of IMPOSSIBILITY. Getting distance and
reflection on THIS impossibility leaves one reflecting on THIS
impossibility of the LOSS of one's spouse. Impossibility reflected on is
still impossibility.
Vasilyk suggests the path through this impossibility [as actual
impossibility] is a work of "repair" , a work of "restoration"
proceeding at
right angles to the line of actualization of life. I ask, Whose line?.
Do we
need to "return" by restoring the previous line of actualization? Often
the
answer is to return and find our previous bearings. But this previous
line
may become an impossibility to return to. There may be no restoration of
the
previous center. What then? There is still movement but AIMLESS movement
with empty sign-containers. This movement has adverbial qualities such
as
despairing movement, hopeless movement, reflective movement of
impossibility. But no return to the "normative" bearings that
previously
gave life purpose and direction as "self-regulated psychological
systems" No
return to an ethical life of shared semiotics. No return to a "center"
of
coherence.
What I'm describing is a shattering perezhivanie of lived experiencing,
of
lived movement. The return to the self at these moments is a return to
impossibility.
Is there anywhere else to turn at these moments? I would suggest what
is
required at moments of shattering impossibility is "holding
environments"
where there is recognition of the shattering impossibility of
perezhivanie.
The term "witnessing" captures the particular form of recognition I'm
pointing to. Witnessing as a recognition of the intersubjective
"calling" of
the suffering impossibility of the other and the response to that
calling.
Witnessing as engagement NOT reflective conceptualization OF the
suffering
impossibility. Witnessing as living through with the other the
impossible
suffering with no hope of transformation. This is NOT empathy or shared
feeling as identity with the other. The ethical premise I'm pointing to
is
that this witnessing as an agentive act of being with suffering IS the
movement of reengagement not as transformation or catharsis but being
with
suffering impossibility. The other as witness is a particular form of
agentive action with a particular qualified movement. [not a qualia or
entified essence] This witnessing has a particular ethical perspective
that
I believe requires "maturity" and is a "skill" [Merleau-Ponty] that is
"possibly" acquired if one has previously been met in their suffering
despair.
Where we turn in our suffering is representative of the ethical
normatively
in*formed knowledgeability [not info*mation] in our ways of life. The
knowledgeability that assumes we must turn towards our inscapes in a
search
to return to our previous lines of actualization represents a particular
way
of life. A way of life centered on the centering and decentering of the
encapsulated self. Self-regulation within particular "systems" of
ethical
normative movements of perezhivanie. INscapes not landscapes as places
to
find ones bearings. If you make it to the other side of this inscape
and
re-engage in restored repaired lines of actualization you will be
CONFIRMED
in your validation of self-regulation within systems as ways of life.
However not every person navigates the suffering impossibility by
restoring
previous forms of self-regulated systems of personality [with a restored
center] There are other constellations of personality not so centered
on
inscapes but rather on intersubjective commitments of creating "holding
environments" where suffering impossibility is met by the witnessing
other
who participates in the suffering impossibility and "contains" or
"collects"
the other in the witnessing encounter. THIS particular form of
"meeting"
may in time be transformative in shifting the suffering impossibility.
Mike, exploring suffering perezhivanie as movement of e*motion and where
we
turn [or where we are met] in our suffering, crystallizes different
notions
of experiencing . Merleau-Ponty, Ingold, Shotter pointing at perception
and
conception as skills of orientation developed within social
interactions, as
ways of normative life, is a tradition with potential. Suffering
impossibility, within this perspective should be "met" not "overcome" or
"undergone"
Larry
On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Michael Levykh<mlevykh@shaw.ca> wrote:
Refusal to confront, Andy, is already a step away from the ACTUAL
experience
in the past.
_______________________________________
Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D.
Therapist& Educational Psychologist
www.affectivetherapy.com
http://about.me/michaelglevykh
"How we nurture our social emotions is what makes us who we are."
~ M. G. Levykh
-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
On
Behalf Of Andy Blunden
Sent: October-01-11 6:41 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] varying definitions of perezhivanie
Isn't it the case, Michael, that a peerezhivanie has to be followed by
a
catharsis in order to foster a development? The war veteran who refuses
to confront the traumatic experience they had in the war, kind of fails
to make the development which the lived experience they shared gives
them the possibility for.
Michael Levykh wrote:
Mike,
perezhivaniye, in my interpretation of Vygotsky, is the ability, when
being
in the moments of crisis, to step away from the immediate experience:
"In
order to explain and understand experience, it is necessary to go
beyond
its
limits; it is necessary to forget about it for a minute and move away
from
it" (Vygotsky, 1999, p. 243). Feeling good is the ideal result for an
individual who is able to step away from his immediate struggle with
social
demands, reflect on his/her past experience, and contemplate
(extrapolate)
his/her future experiences.
Michael
_______________________________________
Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D.
Therapist& Educational Psychologist
www.affectivetherapy.com
<
http://email.about.me/wf/click?c=e86tqVWFYsEogZdu8cwmbnGfDLgcCO7Yb6%2Fms%2F
w5hSbigpUHIH%2B3q%2FJ6rl44%2F7kv&rp=kkuZYPlTP6K8%2BlaQBcUVvhUiY0sq8vL6S2PHrN
%2B%2FLwtoGfL%2FI%2FIYjajJunJ9DkZu&u=XTSF8JjpQReWbaUoYNTI-A%2Fh0>
http://about.me/michaelglevykh
"How we nurture our social emotions is what makes us who we are."
~ M. G. Levykh
_____
From: mike cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
Sent: October-01-11 4:16 PM
To: Michael Levykh
Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] varying definitions of perezhivanie
OK, everyone is far away from being an expert.
But........
How do you respond to the notion of "Self-regulated psychological
system
of
personality" as a synonym for perezhivanie and the discussion of
similar
terms
in German and Spanish?
I find it interesting that Vasiliuk argues that perezhivanie is a
special
kind of experience of "activity on oneself" in moments of crisis. The
whole
idea of "individual activity" is a constant source of confusion for
me,
but
confronted with an example of a person's mate dying as the medium for
discussion of perezhivanie makes me stop and think.
mike
On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Michael Levykh<mlevykh@shaw.ca>
wrote:
Thank you, Mike. But I am far from being an expert. As for the
discussion,
I
have been only passively following on and off this one.
Michael
_____
From: mike cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
Sent: October-01-11 3:57 PM
To: Michael Levykh
Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] varying definitions of perezhivanie
Good to have an expert involved, Michael.
What is your interpretation of the recent discussion of this issue?
mike
On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Michael Levykh<mlevykh@shaw.ca>
wrote:
I hope the following paragraph from my 2008 PhD Theses might shed a
bit
more
light on your discussion:
Vasilyuk (1984) writes in his annotation to Psikhologia Perezhivaniya
(Psychology of Perezhivaniye), that in order to manage (perezhits)
"situations of stress, frustration, inner conflict, and life crisis,
quite
often a painful inner work has to be done in re-establishing inner
equilibrium and reconstructing a new meaningful life" (para. 1, my
translation). For him, even a painful experience in the past can be
recreated as a positive, pleasurable, meaningful future-oriented
experience
of personality. Hence, perezhivaniye is a future-oriented, conscious,
and
individual emotional experience of past events achieved in the
"here-and-now" through reflection on the individual's struggle within
himself/herself (e.g., as if struggling between the dual consciousness
of
self and the character he/she portrays) and with the social
environment
(e.g., his/her audience). Although perezhivaniye connotes mostly
negative
(painful) experience of the past, its future-orientedness provides
possibilities for positive outcomes. Such positive possibilities are
also
reflected in Vygotsky's optimistic views on cultural development in
general.
Michael Levykh
-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
]
On
Behalf Of mike cole
Sent: October-01-11 2:53 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity
Subject: [xmca] varying definitions of perezhivanie
Below are two snippets from Vasiliuk's book which have informed my,
still forming, understanding (s) of perezhivanie as used by Russians.
Its from Vasiliuk's book, The psych of experiencing. There is a ton to
the
book of interest but
these citations bring out a feature of perezhivanie that is not
evident
in
"lived through experience"
nor even in "a mixture of emotion and cognition" versions.
This book is written within a dialogue with activity theory.
perezhivanie
is
translated as experiencing.
mike
---------------
But in this real world, in life, situations exist where the main
problem
cannot be solved either by practical activity, even the best-equipped,
or
by
the most highly accurate reflection of that problem in the mind. If a
person
is threatened by danger he can try to save himself by running away,
but
as
R. Peters writes, "if a man is overcome by grief because his wife is
dead,
what can be done of a specific sort to remedy *that *situation?"
. when we speak of "generating meaning" what we have in mind is a
special *activity
on the part of the individual*. 7
The specifics of this activity are determined by the peculiarities of
the
situations which put the individual under the necessity of
experiencing.
We
shall refer to these as critical situations. If one had to use one
word
only
to define the nature of such situations one would have to say that
they
are
situations of impossibility. Impossibility of what? Impossibility of
living,
of realising the internal necessities of life.
The struggle against that impossibility, the struggle to realise
internal
necessities - that is experiencing. Experiencing is the repair of a
"disruption" of life, a work of restoration, proceed-ing as it were at
right
angles to the line of actualisation of life.
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Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
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Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
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Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
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