Re: [xmca] Vostellung

[Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>]

Hi Andy,

Here's what one online dictionary (www.eudict.com) offers, which seems rather different from what you've proposed:

Darstelung = embodiment, representation, picture, presentment, image, phantom, portrayal, statement

Vorstellung =association, conceivability, imagination, conception, idea, notion, perception, performance, show

Martin

On Jan 25, 2011, at 1:20 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:

> I don't know if this is of any use, Martin. I have no idea about the Russian of course! But this is what I know of the translation of the German terms into English, which doesn't quite tally with your information.
> 
>  /Vostellung /is usually translated as 'representation'. /Vorstellen
>  /is literally 'to put in front of', introduce a person to someone or
>  represent them (on their behalf). Also to represent in art. /Sich
>  vorstellen/ is to represent something to oneself, i.e., imagine,
>  conceive, picture to oneself, and thus to produce a /Vorstellung/.
>  This emphasises the subjective state of the subject rather than the
>  nature of the object being represented.
> 
>  In philosophy, /Vorstellung /means 'idea' in the very broad sense /a
>  la /Locke, as thoughts, intuitions, sensations, perceptions, and as
>  "representation" in translating Kant. Or in a narrower sense,
>  /Vorstellung /is contrasted with perception or sensuous intuition,
>  as /Vorstellung /does /not /imply that the object and person are in
>  each other's presence. /Vorstellung /is also to be contrasted with
>  /Idee/, because it /does /have a pictorial element to it,.
> 
> /Darstellen /also means to represent or exhibit, but usually in less detail or more generally stand for. You can use it in the sense of value "represents" (/darstellen/) labour, or all commodities "represent" (/darstellen/) social labour, or how neuronal activity can "represent" (/darstellen/) a thought. It seems to me that the concept of "representation" is not all pictorial here, but more like "evidence of" or "stands for".
> 
> This page: http://www.marxists.org/archive/rubin/value/ch12.htm discusses the translation of the Russian */predstavlyat'/* as "represent"
> 
> What's the reference in Vygotsky, Martin?
> 
> Andy
> 
> Martin Packer wrote:
>> Dear XMCAers,
>> 
>> Are there equivalents in Russian to the Vorstellung/Darstellung distinction in German? The first is generally translated into English as "idea," while the second as "representation." The follow-up question (for double points) would be, how does LSV use these (Russian) terms?
>> 
>> Martin
>> 
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