Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and Trotsky (question)

Dear Achiles, dear David,

thank you for your commends/ questions, just because of practical
reasons, it is very difficult to me to continue this discussion just
now, but I am looking forward to learning more about this fascinating
past!

yours

Michalis Kontopodis

research associate
humboldt university berlin
tel.: +49 (0) 30 2093 3716
fax.: +49 (0) 30 2093 3739
http://www.csal.de
http://www.iscar.org/de/

On 12.11.2008, at 19:31, Achilles Delari Junior wrote:

>
> Michalis,
>
> Thank you very much...
>
> These informations allow to think that quote Trotsky in this context
> turns something undesirable from official political point of view,
> despite
> Vygotsky's works were wrote maybe when there was not such restriction
> so clearly defined... But publication of Pedagogical Psychology in
> 1926
> was carried on even so (!) It's interesting this possibility of non-
> official
> publications at that time. How did Soviet State administrate this
> alternative
> publisher houses? Was not there any kind of control or restriction
> to it too?
> With economic matters centralized, how can an relatively autonomous
> publishing busyness survive at this social context, with editorial
> guidelines
> not strictly aligned with the Conference of the Communist Party? There
> was cues of not yet "unidimensional" society until this date? Voices
> of
> some kind of "resistance"? Or this though of mine sounds too romantic?
> Please, help me to think better.
>
> About Vygotsky and Nietzsche, I wait more notices. The few impressions
> that I had, until now, were of a critical position by the first
> about the second...
> Mostly at "Defectology" and "Socialist alteration of man"... But my
> memory
> can be wrong about these references too, I read some years ago...
> The socialist
> "new man" versus the nietzschean "beyond-the-man" (Übermensch)?
> Mikhail
> Bakhtin, by his turn, in "Philosophy of Act" criticized Nietzsche
> about his "vitalism".
> I will wait more notices, but if you can tell us more about, I will
> be thankful
> as well.
>
> Thank you, once more.
> Achilles.
>
>
>> From: michalis.kontopodis@staff.hu-berlin.de
>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and Trotsky (question)
>> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:00:34 +0100
>>
>> I think I can contribute to this discussion:
>>
>> there is a German Vygotsky scholar, Peter Keiler who did extensive
>> research and in his book:
>>
>> http://www.amazon.de/Lev-Vygotskij-Leben-Psychologie-Einf%fchrung/dp/3407221266/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226475718&sr=8-1
>>
>> sees a Nietzschean influence on Vygotsky and examines the use of
>> citations of Trotsky in the Psychology of Art.
>>
>> Keiler claims that it was because of these ideological influences
>> that
>> the Psychology of Art which was initially accepted for publication,
>> was not published after Trotsky's views were officialy rejected
>> (Conference of the Communist Party in 1925). It was also because of
>> this reason that Vygotsky's book Educational Psychology was not
>> published with the State Publisher in 1924/1925 but with the
>> Publisher
>> 'Workers of Education' in 1926 (I am not sure about the translation
>> of
>> the names of the Publishers and I do not have the originals now).
>>
>> I am writing about these issues and I think Veresov has done also
>> work
>> about this issue in English, so for sure there is/will be some more
>> material in the future for the English-speaking audience.
>>
>> with friendly regards,
>>
>> Michalis Kontopodis
>>
>> research associate
>> humboldt university berlin
>> tel.: +49 (0) 30 2093 3716
>> fax.: +49 (0) 30 2093 3739
>> http://www.csal.de
>> http://www.iscar.org/de/culthistanthpsy/
>>
>> On 12.11.2008, at 00:24, Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> David,
>>>
>>> Thank you very much...
>>>
>>> I have suspected that was not only an opportunistic relation,
>>> but you give us many more reasons to confirm my suspects...
>>> Despite somebody that had that kind of only strictly political
>>> acceptance goals, Trotsky was then the obvious reference to
>>> quote too - and this I didn't knew until your explanation. Well,
>>> all we are real persons, with our contradictions, including
>>> moral and political dilemmas - but, even so, I resist to wonder
>>> Vygotsky's intentions only in therms of simple conveniences or
>>> blind following of a moment trend or fashion. I don't know...
>>> All we are human, "nothing of human will be strange to us"...
>>> But if you said:
>>>
>>> "I think the real affinity between Trotsky and Vygotsky (and even
>>> more,
>>>
>>> between Trotsky and Luria) is to be found a little deeper. It's not
>>>
>>> something that he would have left on the surface, and even if he
>>> had,
>>>
>>> it would have been expunged for obvious reasons."
>>>
>>> And then you empower my feeling that there was something
>>> beyond convenience in that dialog.
>>>
>>> Thank you, again.
>>> Achilles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:50:48 -0800
>>>> From: vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and Trotsky (question)
>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>
>>>> Dear Achilles:
>>>>
>>>> I think everybody is right all around. The problem is that Vygotsky
>>>> was not a party member, and the Bolshevik Party tended to keep its
>>>> disagreements to itself until fairly late. Remember that although
>>>> Pedagogical Psychology was publishedi n 1926, most of it was
>>>> written earlier for teaching purposes.
>>>>
>>>> By 1926, Lenin was dead, and Trotsky was already in opposition.
>>>> Stalin, however, was not well known outside the party; he'd been
>>>> not particularly distinguished editor of Pravda, and written (with
>>>> Lenin's help) a book on the nationalities question, but that was
>>>> about it.
>>>>
>>>> Trotsky, on the other hand, was extremely well known as the man who
>>>> had led the first unsuccessful Soviet in 1905, written prolifically
>>>> on art, literature, science, and the history he had helped to make.
>>>> Popularly, he was the man perceived to have almost single-handedly
>>>> created the Red Army and saved the USSR during the civil war. He
>>>> was the obvious person to quote, particularly if you were Jewish,
>>>> kind of intellectual, and inclinded to cross-disciplinary
>>>> intellectual interests.
>>>>
>>>> I think the real affinity between Trotsky and Vygotsky (and even
>>>> more, between Trotsky and Luria) is to be found a little deeper.
>>>> It's not something that he would have left on the surface, and even
>>>> if he had, it would have been expunged for obvious reasons.
>>>>
>>>> Nevertheless, it's really there, particularly in the idea of
>>>> permanent revolution, where development consists not of the Stalin
>>>> like mechanical replication of stages, but in the Trotsky like
>>>> compression of stages, where "the first shall be last" and the
>>>> "rock that was despised by the builders shall be the cornerstone".
>>>>
>>>> David Kellogg
>>>> Seoul National University of Education
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
>>>> Subject: [xmca] Vygotsky and Trotsky (question)
>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 2:39 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Greetings,
>>>>
>>>> It´s only a simple question,
>>>>
>>>> Alex Kozulin (1990, Vygotsky: a biography of ideas) in his chapter
>>>> about
>>>> "Pedagogical Psychology", see this book almost like a non-
>>>> vygotskyan
>>>> work.
>>>> I will not touch the problem of pavlovian trends of Vygotsky at
>>>> this time.
>>>> But, about Trotsky, Kozulin think that Vygotsky quotes him only as
>>>> a political
>>>> mean to be accepted in official marxist scene of the time, and
>>>> nothing really
>>>> conceptually relevant. But, I had asked for myself, since 1994 when
>>>> I have
>>>> read Kozulin excellent book: why then Trotsky? Why not Lenin or
>>>> Stalin him-
>>>> self. Is not Pedagogical psychology a book published at 1926? Tom
>>>> Bottomore
>>>> said that since 1923, Trotsky was leading opposition movements
>>>> against so-
>>>> viet bureaucracy, what culminate with his expulsion from USSR in
>>>> 1929 by
>>>> Stalin. Many years after read Kozulin's book, Vygostky's
>>>> Pedagogical
>>>> Psycho-
>>>> logy was published in Portuguese... I don't know exactly what
>>>> happens after
>>>> with his political trends, but I feel that his quotations seems to
>>>> be not so
>>>> artificial, nor conveniently "official".
>>>>
>>>> What do you think about?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you, very much. It's only to share a simple historical doubt.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes.
>>>> Achilles
>>>>
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Received on Sat Nov 15 11:10:52 2008