Re: [xmca] subjectivity question

From: Andy Blunden (ablunden@mira.net)
Date: Thu Nov 10 2005 - 19:25:12 PST


   Look, I apologise if I have misrepresented Foucault and Butler.
   I certainly did not mean to present "simple and dogmatic
   alternatives", I was just trying to be succinct, and I never even
   mentioned Marx.
   Perhaps you could elaborate for me and others, Martin?
   Andy
   At 09:54 PM 10/11/2005 -0500, you wrote:

     This really does not do justice to Foucault (or Butler). The
     (bourgois,
     Cartesian) subject was just as much an illusion to Marx, for one
     thing. The
     affinities between Foucault and Marx are complex and subtle (as are
     the
     differences), and healthier reading than many simple and dogmatic
     alternatives.
     Martin
     On 11/10/05 9:12 PM, "Andy Blunden" <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
> I agree Mary, that for an understanding of the meaning of
     subjectivity
> in today's context, poststructuralists like Judith Butler
     and Michel
> Foucault (and Cavarero ?I think?) are indispensable, as they
     are the
> main critics of subjectivity still today. But I really do
     think at
> least a health warning needs to be attached to such a
     recommendation,
> viz., that for these writers "subjectivity" means what I
     at least
> would call "subject position", and not anything like what
     either Anna
> Stetsenko or I, for example, would call "subjectivity."
> Poststructuralists claim to have "deconstructed the subject",
     for them
> it is an illusion. To Judith Butler's credit, she does
     indeed claim
> and promote the capacity of individual people and groups to
     change the
> discourses and narratives (structures) which determine them,
     but as I
> see it at any rate, this possibility, open to an
     individual to
> intervene in the structures which determine their
     consciousness is not
> so much an afterthought - to say that would be missing the
     point - but
> it is at the margins. (Much like those kind of leftists who
     say that
> the state control everything, but still envisage the
     possibility of
> overthrowing the state.)
> I think poststructuralism is a powerful theory, but don't you
     find it
> very "objectivist" as well, Mary?
> I wish I could offer an alternative reading list, but I
     find that
> those writers who are currently promoting subjectivity
     (e.g. Frank
> Ferudi, James Heartfield, Charles Taylor) I cannot recommend
     without
> "health warnings" either.
> Andy
> PS. Everything people on this list have to say about *how* to
     discuss,
> I always read with the greatest attention, because XMCA is
     really the
> most outstandingly successful and productive list that
     exists. I will
> try to do better.
> At 08:32 AM 10/11/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>
> Two short books would, I think, provide an excellent
     overview of
> contemporary thinking about this vexed matter of
     "self",
> "subjectivitity",
> and the relationality of self and others, and of course,
     self as
> Other to
> itself...
> Judith Butler, Giving an Account of Oneself, 2005,
     Fordham
> University Press
> Adriana Cavarero, (1997), Relating Narratives:
     Storytelling and
> selfhood,
> Routledge
> But for the sake of completeness, I would have to add,
     Michel
> Foucault's
> later work, The Hermaneutics of the Subject, 2001, Palgrave
     -- kind
> of
> fascinating because, published posthumously, these are
     literally
> transcriptions of Foucault lecturing at the University.
> A little contemplative reading is, I think, more helpful
     here than
> trying to
> summarize about 300 years of work in an email -- and
     actually, if
> you just
> read the Butler text, which is less than 150 pages, you will
     get it
> all.
> Mary
> ---------------
> Mary K. Bryson, Associate Professor and Graduate
     Coordinator, ECPS,
> Faculty
> of Education, University of British Columbia
> Research Profile
> [1]http://www.ecps.educ.ubc.ca/research/mbryson.htm
> On 11/9/05 8:52 AM, "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Mary-- I found the message where I raised questions about the
     use
> of the
>> term,
>> subjectivity. The question I am raising is one that I
     have
> brooded about for
>> a long
>> time without ever seeking to bring the discourses
     where
> subjectivity is a
>> key term
>> and discourses that use terms like psyche, mind, etc. that
     tend
> to come from
>> different
>> places/times.
>> This may not be productive for people to discuss if others
     are
> clear on it
>> but I am not
>> so would benefit from such a discussion.
>> mike
>> ------------
>> Second, and on a very different tack. I would really
     appreciate
> help
>> understanding warrants for claims about another person or
     group's
>> "subjectivity."
>> I am a member of modern academic culture, so of course I have
     a
> general idea
>> of what the term means from its uses, as in Anna's paper, but
     in
> cultural
>> studies more broadly. But, perhaps because of my training as
     a
> behaviorist,
>> or perhaps because of my training as a student of
     Alexander
> Luria's, many
>> uses
>> of the term make me nervous, and that extends to Anna's paper
     and
> your
>> discussion with Martin (for whom the term is more comfortable,
     I
> believe --
>> Please, Martin, Anna, Andy, Mary, and others join in here).
>>
>> Danzinger recounts how it came about that a researcher in
     a
> German
>> laboratory in the 1880's-1990's came to be called "the
     subject,"
> the person
>> whose
>> psychological states/perceptions/elements
     of
> consciousness/....... his (it
>> was all hims at the time) research-partner was, in
     collaboration
> with the
>> subject,
>> trying to obtain "scientific evidence" about. In simple terms,
     it
> was the
>> problem of how you could know what someone else
     was
> thinking/feeling.
>>
>> Luria writes about his disillusion with various attempts to
     solve
> this
>> problem. He specifed, in The Nature of Human Conflicts, and
     again
> in his
>> autobiography,
>> a method in which the researcher created a situation where
     s/he
> and the
>> "subject" were coordinated in a cultural medium. The behavior
     of
> both was
>> voluntary, not reflexive. Once they achieve highly
     coordinated
> joint
>> actions, the researcher introduces a highly selected change
     into
> the
>> situation and
>> determines if this change results in a change in the
     coordinated
> actions of
>> the "subject." ONLY when there is selective,
     predictable,
> DIS-coordination
>> of the coordinated joint activity is there a warrant for a
     claim
> about the
>> other person's thought/feeling.
>>
>> Peg Griffin and I sought to extend this idea into the
     diagnosis
> and
>> remediation of reading difficulties of children with, I
     believe,
> reasonable
>> success. Bruner and
>> others used it, without acknowledgement or recognition of
     its
> general
>> importance so far as I know, in studies where, for
     example,
> infants are
>> first habituated
>> to a series of stimuli while their "signature" rhythmic
     sucking
> is recorded
>> and then a small change of interest (phoeme,
     visual
> configuration...) is
>> introduced
>> to see if the suckig is disrupted.
>>
>> I can give other examples from rare, but naturally
     occuring
> events I have
>> participated in.
>>
>> But in general, what are the warrants for claims about
     another
> person's or
>> another people's subjectivity? Last night on National
     Public
> Radio I heard a
>> Palastinian and other people writing "in diaspora" speak of
     the
> fence as
>> huge influence on his feeling of being walled out of his
     own
> country. The
>> people from various parts
>> of Africa rioting in Paris are clearly outraged over
     their
> treatment by the
>> French and I see their anger in their actions. But what can
     I
> claim to know
>> about their
>> subjectivity (their anger is objectively visible to me)? What
     can
> my
>> daughter, who has lived in Eastern Madagascar at various
     periods
> in her
>> life, gotten
>> extraordinarily ill from helping grow rice in
     swamps,
> participated in cattle
>> sacrifice, grieved at the death of her Malagasy ancestors,
     know
> about
>> Malagasy
>> subjectivity? Behind my back,the BBC is showing anyone who
     will
> watch the
>> subjectivity of Latin Americans outraged at American
     policies.
> What can I
>> know about their subjectivity other than its
     external
> manifestations?
>>
>> This is not a known answer question. I would appreciate help
     in
> coming to
>> terms with the use of this term. I believe it must be used
     with
> great care
>> and the
>> possibility of claims being incorrect. Luria wanted to be able
     to
>> distinguish what people said from what they "felt." In
     Anna's
> paper, the
>> terms subjectivity
>> and intersubjectivity are central. What is being meant by what
     is
> being
>> written?
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> [2]http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> [3]http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> Andy Blunden, on behalf of the Victorian Peace Network, Phone
     (+61)
> 03-9380 9435
> Alexander Surmava's Tour - September/October 2006
>
     [4][1]http://ethicalpolitics.org[5]/alexander-surmava/index.htm
>
> References
>
> 1. [2]http://www.ecps.educ.ubc.ca/research/mbryson.htm
> 2. [3]http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> 3. [4]http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> 4. [5]http://ethicalpolitics.org/alexander-surmava/index.htm
> 5. [6]http://ethicalpolitics.org/alexander-surmava/index.htm
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> [7]http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
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    Andy Blunden, on behalf of the Victorian Peace Network, Phone (+61)
                                03-9380 9435
             Alexander Surmava's Tour - September/October 2006
       [9]http://ethicalpolitics.org[10]/alexander-surmava/index.htm

References

   1. http://ethicalpolitics.org[5/
   2. http://www.ecps.educ.ubc.ca/research/mbryson.htm
   3. http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
   4. http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
   5. http://ethicalpolitics.org/alexander-surmava/index.htm
   6. http://ethicalpolitics.org/alexander-surmava/index.htm
   7. http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
   8. http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
   9. http://ethicalpolitics.org/alexander-surmava/index.htm
  10. http://ethicalpolitics.org/alexander-surmava/index.htm
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