Re: [xmca] LCA: Speaking of antinomies

From: Wolff-Michael Roth (
Date: Sun Jul 24 2005 - 09:13:38 PDT

Hi Mike and others,
a further comment about teachers and change.

After I left high school to teach at the university, I thought about
graduate training as "apprenticeship" and "legitimate peripheral
participation" but made the error that I conceived of community as
something stable to which graduate students were coming and becoming a
member. I was a member, and therefore, implicitly, had to change as
little as the community.

It was through my interactions with graduate students that I learned
that I could learn and change. This is how I see it today, that our
community changes not only because it accepts new members who produce
and reproduce the collective (xmca, CHAT, science education, whatever)
in new ways, but also because the community itself and its old-timers
change. There is therefore a double change, a double dialectic that
produces historical change in and of communities.

One of the struggles in which I not only learned but also learned about
learning (à la Bateson) is described in an online piece, which I
co-authored with Stuart Lee, a former doctoral student now working as
policy analyst for Environment Canada.

Lee, S. H., & Roth, W.-M. (2003). Becoming and belonging: Learning
qualitative research through legitimate peripheral participation. (64
paragraphs). Forum Qualitative Sozialforschung / Forum: Qualitative
Social Research, 4(2).

and in another piece:

Lee, S. H., & Roth, W.-M. (2000). Autobiography and the paradox of
change: (Dis)locating ourselves in the process. Research in Science
Education, 30, 57–73.

It is only if we, the old-timers, radically open ourselves to change
that we enter truly democratic societies, collectivities, communities.
. .


On 24-Jul-05, at 8:49 AM, Mike Cole wrote:

> A rare moment of agreement? As difficult as it is embody in utterances?
> The point about teachers needing to change as part of the process of
> student change speaks to current "disagreements" about how to
> interpret
> the zone of proximal development both in educational settings, where
> there
> ae some warrants for "more capable others" and in work settings, where
> the issue who/what "the other" is remains more ambiguous.
> The statement that : This is the source of intersubjectivity, which
> is both produced in the
> action, all the while it is presupposed by the action.  --- brings to
> mind quickly the
> process of prolepsis.
> mike
> On 7/24/05, Wolff-Michael Roth <> wrote:
>> I agree the necessity for doing the kind of work you outline in your
>> last sentence. This is why I conceptualized, for example, science
>> education as an endeavor where students learn while engaging in and
>> for
>> social action. E.g.,
>> Roth, W.-M., & Lee, S. (2004). Science education as/for participation
>> in the community. Science Education, 88, 263–291.
>> Roth, W.-M., & Lee, S. (2002). Scientific literacy as collective
>> praxis. Public Understanding of Science, 11, 33–56.
>> But this means that educators have to change. If we educate as and for
>> collective praxis, then it is no longer important that everyone knows
>> the same thing at the same time. Rather, what we need to be able to do
>> is engage with others who think and feel very differently, and do so
>> without putting them down, that is, in democratic ways so that we can
>> cogenerate solutions to the problems we face as a collective.
>> Cheers,
>> Michael
>> On 24-Jul-05, at 7:10 AM, Armando Perez wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Michael:
>> > I m really in accord with you that it is in practice,
>> > action that are integrated both planes of
>> > subjectivity, that I work out as colective and
>> > personal(inter and inter). I agree also that both are
>> > premise and results of practice, action. But, if it is
>> > possible to establish theoretically and
>> > epistemologically that in its genesis, development and
>> > so on both are transversalizased for practice, in its
>> > real movement may be in real antagonism,
>> > contradiction. That´s why we are working, now, in
>> > Cuba, as projects of research, in the development of a
>> > community that could integtrate as much as possible
>> > the personal and the social in a community project.
>> > Armando
>> >
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