Interesting, Mike... I had in mind some questions from Bakhtin's
"Problems of Dostoevsky's Poetics" -despite I don't remember now
the exact chapter (I can check soon)... I understand both
Vygotsky and Bakhtin have a kind of "family air" and some common
roots in a dialogical "tradition" -perhaps because something
"socratic" influences (Vygotsky's education with Solomon
Ashpiz... Bakhtin's explicit prizes to the Socrates from the
streets, not yet sterilized by monological doutrinary platonic
proposes, etc. - this is at the chapter forth), but probably not
only by this way... Dialetics has a science of/discourse about
the world contradictions and/or permanent movement and
transformation, is at the very beginning very close to the
dialetics as an "Art of the dialog" too, in may way of view (see
the "Logos" for Heraclitus). I don´t know if this is a correct
supposition of mine. When you talk about the "heterocronic"
(Valsiner and van der Veer terms, I guess), non-linear, chats,
in which we participate here, for instance, this leads my
imagination too something about that "socratic dialog"
discursive gender IN THE STREETS - what you can interpret in
some "ethnomethodogical" gender to make science and education
too, if you wish... But, now and here, not exactly at the
streets ("dromos") but at unprovable international "info-ways" :-
)
Achilles (The Menon's slave).
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 14:37:11 -0800
Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
From: lchcmike@gmail.com
To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
Very interesting thread.
I was struck by the following, Achilles:
You write
He thought that a better way is dialog itself, the true is not
with me, not
with you, and not with nobody and/or with everybody - the
truth can
historicaly emerge in.....
This is very reminiscent of Vygotsky way of talking about
consciousness at
the end of Thinking and Speech.
mike
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi Larry,I think that all you said is about many crucial
problems to us,
not only related to the history of a (plural) "way of
thinking" in
psychology, but related to all our historical-cultural
conditions as human
beings too. Vygotsky, I understand loved the the "Truth",
and the search for
the "Truth", it is something that we can see in one of his
letters to Luria
(1926), after even quoted by Valsiner and van der Veer, and
by Veresov too:
"For me the primary question is the question of method, that
is for me the
question of truth…" - but even understand the actual meaning
of such a word
as "truth" is not a easy task, because of the own polissemic
character of
it, because there is obstinate fights about what this word
can mean in
different social contexts, because this meaning is not
independent from a
"second" (a concrete situated interlocutor) and from a
"third" (an anonymous
and generic social interlocutor in the time in that this
word is said and
beyond, projecting it in time, in future, in the "Great
Temporality" - in
Bakhtin words again)... But, in my naive reading, I guess
that the was, at
least two traditions in Vygotsky's concept of "truth", the
spinozian (with
the statement that there is nothing totally unkowing in
Nature, i.e., in all
that exist, in all that embraces reality), and, of course,
the marxian (with
the statement that the question of objective truth is not
only a discursive
rhetoric task, but mainly a question of praxis, therefore a
question of
actual transformation of the reality we try to explain with
our words)...
Then if Vygotsky did not leaves out the concept and the
desire of a truth, I
guess this is not in a classical, platonic and/or scholastic
fashion> > (tradition?) to approach this problem. I understand
that this is not a
peripheral problem in Vygotsky's though and project to
historical-cultural
psychology. But this can create several disputes, inside the
arena of the
signs "truth", "method", and even "heuristics", for sure.
The heuristic
problem, in sense of construction of paths to construct
knowledge about
human condition and/or permanent transformation of that
(social)condition,> > the methodological problem, in the same
sense, seems to be almost always in
the forefront in Vygotsky's concerns... If we can understand
better the
social (complex, non-linear) formation of a trend of
thinking in twenty
century Russian (and International) psychology, it is
reasonable suppose
that we would can understand better another cultural
collective movements of
creation of discourses and practices mediated by them.
Particularly I wonder
that dialogic criteria to search the "truth" is very useful
too. Bakhtin, in
this sense, is against not only "dogmatic" concept of truth,
but even
against "relativistic" one... He though that a better way is
dialog itself,
the true is not with me, not with you, and not with nobody
an/or with
everybody - the truth can historicaly emerges in dialogical
process... In
this sense, the different versions for the historical facts
must not be
simply sawed as many equally true versions, in their inner
logic and
structure all equally valid (relativistic approach), nor a
question> > exclusively about there are people lying when other
are telling the real and
unquestionable truth (dogmatic approach) - but the fight
between different
versions itself can be the own embodiment of the possible
historical truth
to construct. But methodologically it is really not easy, to
put in fight
that confrontation of the versions of the facts, even more
many facts are
not like a meteorological happening to which people can say
"It was a little
breath" and/or "it was a big torment" and then we must
return to objective
fact to prove two versions and find the real true. Of course
in history, in
psychology, the things are not in this fashion, because the
own "versions"
becomes constitutive of the "facts" (i.e. what we call
"version" is a
"discursive fact", an "speech act", etc.), and we are not in
a very
comfortable position to decide. The textual analysis, the
hermeneutic and
exegetic tools are very important and very useful and
absolutely necessary
in this impossible mission, of course. But even this
methodology to
understand the texts is constituted by some believes that we
have/acquire> > about what is the "text", what is "meaning",
what is "reality", "truth" and
"lies", and who is the "subject" that produces this things
in his/her social
relations, cultural contexts, etc... These believes about
how to do our
hermeneutic task are historically constituted too, are not
outside history,
supra-positioned respect the own text, in any sense, this
exegetical> > tradition is some kind of recreation of original
texts too, and a new verse
to the play that must goes on, a part of the "tradition"
(and contradiction)
too. Self-consciousness of this exegetic limit (to be a
historical been in
the same time when we are trying to decode historical
encrypted messages)
seems to be an interesting step... Because in future can
will exist many
researchers telling about the lies we are just telling
today. Even so, in a
"vygotskian tradition" we can not absolutely abdicate the
quest for truth...
To do this can be to make a choice that will represent a
more deep rupture
with the former project (if the existence of a "project" is
not only an
illusion of my own mind), in my modest opinion.Achilles
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 10:36:28 -0800
From: lpurss@shaw.ca
Subject: Re: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something
in English?
To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
Hi Achilles
Your questions are fascinating as an inquiry of the
constructs or
heuristic processes of emerging "traditions" "schools of thought"
"paradigms" "Discourses" as cultural patterns which we
articulate and
INHABIT.
When you mention Freud, the extensive literature that has
developed> > exploring the formation of a "tradition" of
psychoanalysis as a sociological
and cultural "way of knowing" is informative of
epistemological ways of
creating knowledge. How different versions of the "truth"are
contested and
"true believers" who are arguing for a specific version (as
"dogma") make
validity claims of CERTAINTY for their "true" version
(as they believe
Freud saw the world) is a process of narrative construction
worth studying
in its own right. In fact the sociology of knowledge is a
"tradition which
does just that.
In exploring Vygotsky's contribution to a new emerging
"perspective" or
vantage point from which to "see" human "nature" the same
processes are at
PLAY.
The metaphor that best captures the DYNAMIC PROCESS at
play in the
creation or construction of "traditions" seems to be the
metaphor of
CONVERSATION (as the process of sharing particular
perspectives not to
confirm your particular perspective but as a conscious
process that a THIRD
perspective that is NOVEL and emerges within the open space
of the
conversation is constructed and each participants version
(which is held
tentatively as a FALLIBLE perspective) is enlarged as each
conversant's> > "horizon of understanding" is expanded.
The part that I'm curious about (in my ZPD) is how to
create social
structures where this fallible position can be nurtured and
the vitality of
conversation as creating THIRDNESS replaces the need for
"traditions" as
locations of dogma as "truth".
It is this SENSIBILITY towards "knowing" within the CHAT
collective (in
contrast to SENSE) that I appreciate so much as a place
which invites an
open space to generate THIRDNESS. ( I apologize if I'm using
this term in a
way that muddles other conceptions of thirdness such as
Peirce) "Thirdness"
as a spirit of inquiry does capture the spirit of NOVELTY
created in
communities of inquiry.
It also helps to explain when thirdness collapses into
CERTAINTY and
scholars such as Freud or Vygotsky get locked into dogmatic
traditions.> > > The question to be answered is how do we keep
"traditions" open to
novelty in a spirit of thirdness.
Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 2010 3:03 am
Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
To: lchcmike@gmail.com, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
As a student I took part in Leontjev's course on geleral
psychology and the
his distancing was not obvious (at least for us as students
because one of
the compulsory tasks was to read " Thinking and Speech"
and to be examined
fully on one book as well as another task to read Leontjev;s
"Problems of
development of mind") As for the tradition: Luria's
"Basics of
Neuropsychology" is based on Vygotsky's ideas quite
explicitly. Is this an
expression of cultural-historical tradition?
Bella Kotik
.
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 5:57 AM, mike cole
<lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
Achilles. I think we have lived to witness exactly
"non-liner
genetic> course
or history." For many complex reasons Vygotsky
"missed"> > > > the dominant trend
of his times, behaviorism/psychoanalysis" in a way that
anticipated the
turn
away from Piaget (who did not become "mainstream" in
USA until late
1950's-60's) and banishment of Freud from mainstream
psychology to cultural
studies circles and, in watered down fashion, human
potential> > > > movements) so
that when
Toulmin wrote about "The mozart of psychology" his clearly
idiocyncratic> interpretation fell like a match into a
pool of
gasoline (that looked for
all the world like a pool of water). The "Vygotsky
explosion" that many, such as Laszlo Garai in Hungary have
written about,
and that so irritate many, was the result.
Its really a fascinating process to have lived through,
contributed to,
been guilty of, etc.
And look at one of its consequences. We chatter across the
globe as easily,
or more easily, than we get a loaf of bread......
while others
starve.>
Non linear for sure.
mike
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Achilles Delari
Junior <
achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
I am not historicist, but I can remember something from
Benjamin about
"tradition" x "conservationism" ... That tradition
is not always
conservative nor authoritarian, there are
democratic, dialogical,
revolutionary traditions too... I guess - in
addition - that
perhaps> > something like a "cultural tradition" (any cultural
tradition, in diverse
fields of society collective actions) can have a non-liner
genetic course
or
history... I dont know if this is terminologically
possible> > > > or adequate.
But
a psychological theory, and/or approach, and/or
"perspective" (has some
people tell here in Brazil: "historical-cultural
perspective") - can not
be
like a dogmatic religious tradition (despite I have any
doubts if even
religions can be strictly dogmatic all the time
without any
secular> > influences and changes to dialog with broader
cultural contexts, etc.).
In
this sense neither behaviorism or psychoanalysis
could be
understood as
an
strict "tradition" (there was fights and ruptures
all the time,
dissidences,
detours, new trends, and interpretations, etc.).
Scientific> > > > thought> > presupposes changes as a sine qua
non condition of
its own existence...
Of
course, in the field of the Vygotsky's intelectual,
cultural, legacy
("puzzle kind" legacy) the discontinuous,
intermittent, sometimes
enigmatic,
character of the history of this "(non)tradition" it
is very
eminent.> There
are several important intellectual disputes about
the "correct
interpretation", the best exegetic tools, etc. But
how can
we name this
historical process? Is there something in this that
can have
the same
name?
Every new name means an actual paradigmatic rupture?
A name
never can be
only one meaning, of course. The sample of the name
of the
Journal is
really
worthwhile - a kind of "family name" (as "complex" in
thought and
language
relations). People sometimes use names, words, has
sign of some
collective
identity, to be included in a broader common troupe of
social actors...
this
is far to be something harmonious or ideally synergistic,
but exist some
need to stay in touch with persons that have some common
interests,> mainly
common values, as Mike said. If this can be named a
tradition, now I
already
don't if is the more important question.
Achilles.
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:26:30 -0800
Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in
English?> > > > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
Perhaps we can get the shif book translated if it is
interesting. Does
it
exist in Russian, Anton?
I disagree with only one part of what you say about
"cultural-historical"
school never existing. In the period from about 1956
following Stalin's
death, to the death of Luria and Leontiev, there
was an
identifiable> > group
of people who met together, talked together, shared
certain ideas and
values. They were also quite influential as heads
of some
departments> and
institutes. They did not all agree with each other
(Achille's evocation
of
family strikes me as about right) and Leontiev was both
feared and
distanced
from the others, but they maintained a kind of uneasy
alliance. Here I
would
include
Luria, Zaporzhets, Elkonin, Slavina, Morozova, and
perhaps> > > > a few
others.
It is a great irony that NOW there is a journal of
cultural-historical
psychology in Russia. But perhaps, not a bad thing.
mike (socio-cultural-historical activity scholar)
:-))
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Achilles Delari
Junior <
achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
I really understand... Maybe we can say that Vygotsky
himself was
notever
following his own "project"... In some documents
(letters) he
expresshis
desire to dedicate to an species of "cause", the
"reconstruction of
allpsychological science, building an unified
approach,> > > > but I really
feel
that therewas no "tradition" stricto sensu, nor
no "vigotskian
school"
in a
very definitefashion... Even more to read
Vygotsky is
hard exegetical
task,
his all workseems to be a kind of complex
million pieces
puzzle, at
least
for us non Russianreaders... I dont know... But when
everybody lies,
we
need
to think aboutmethodological tools to define if
there is
a possible
differentiation betweenlies and truth, or we can be
satisfied with
the
impossibility of any truth inany social
discourse... In
capitalists> > liberal
regimes, people can tell some liesin order to satisfy
editorial needs
and
market demands too... financial researchfounds
to their(our)
projects,
and
so on. Then, nobody is without guilt... inthis great
social game for
personal success in unequal power relationships,
between> > > > nations,> > between
institutions, between groups, persons, or evenbetween
brothers at the
same
home...
:-(
Best wishes.
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:35:51 -0800
From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif –
something in English?
To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
Same thing. No answer. Special research needed.
Everybody lies.
From
1930s -- onwards.
Also, note: "Cultural-historical tradition" sensu
Vygotsky never
existed.
And hardly exists today.
----- Original Message ----
From: Achilles Delari Junior
<achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> > > > > To:
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> > > > > > > > > Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010
12:59:24 PM
Subject: RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif –
something in English?
Anton,
This sounds much better! :-)Thank you very
much. And
about this
title?Психология глухих. (Под ред. И.М.
Соловьева, Ж.И.
Шиф, Т.В.
Розановой
и Н.В. Яшковой), М., 1971.Not already from the
1930s...> > > > What you
recommends?
I found an recent Russian publication from 2006,{
http://bookseller.ru/book.php?n=1454} but I did
not feel
secure to
order
in my blind condition tounderstand the book importance
or relation to
historical-cultural tradition...
Thank you.
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:48:14 -0800
From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif –
something in
English?> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
RE: Its important to know that it is not
near to
Vygotsky's> trends.
--
I never said so. I guess I meant to state
that the
connection is
not
obvious and requires substantial textual analysis.
Especially so,
given
the
deliberately cryptic style of writing in Soviet
Psychology from the
1930s
onwards...
----- Original Message ----
From: Achilles Delari Junior
<achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> > > > > > To:
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Fri, January 15,
2010 12:12:00 PM
Subject: RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif –
something in
English?> > > > > >
I understand.Thank you very much.I saw that
there is
something> from
her
about deaf psychology, for instance, etc.Its important
to know that
it
is
not near to Vygotsky's trends.
Best.
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 08:10:21 -0800
From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif –
something in
English?> > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
I personally strongly doubt any
translation of
this book ever
existed.
Good luck anyway!
-- However, there is other stuff by Shif
available> > > > in English,
but it
is hardly related to her Leningrad work and represent
her later
Moscow
work
in defectology...
----- Original Message ----
From: Achilles Delari Junior
<achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> > > > > > > To:
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Fri, January 15,
2010 2:37:26 AM
Subject: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif –
something in English?
Hi XMCA
people…
In order to
help another friend of mine, biologist, studying
scientific> > concepts
development, I’m wonder if you have any notice
about English
(Spanish, French,
etc.) publication from the following text:
Shif, J. I. “Razvitie nauchnykh ponyatii u
schko’nika:> > > > > > > > > > > Issledovanie k voprosu
umstvenogo razvitiya
shkol’nika pri
obuchenii
obshchestvovedeniyu” [The development of
scientific concepts in
the
school
child: The investigation of intellectual
development of the
school
child in
social science instruction]. Moscow – Leningrad:
Gosudarstvennoe
Uchebno-Pedagicheskoe Izdatel’stvo. 1935.
I’m trying
the Russian high now, but we are not so prepared
to actually
translate Russian so
soon, without a huge time spending… And
there are
many other
Russian
needs
prior at the schedule, most of that already
provide thanks you
all.
If you have any notice... :-)
Thank you
very much. Good 2010 for all.
Best
wishes.
Achilles.
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Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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