[Xmca-l] Re: Some more feelgood but illuminating videos

Mon Mar 22 14:53:59 PDT 2021

Thanks to all the Vygotsky Nerds for the clips. The Busy Man clip has been
edited quite a bit, but "Dad Has Full Convo With Baby" seems completely
unedited and has a lot of features that make it more interesting to me,
because I am trying to collect clips that record the moment(s) at which
babies discover what language is and what it can do, e.g. the precise
moment when a child appears to notice that you don't answer a question by
trying to repeat it, but that nevertheless there is usually something there
inside the question which you do repeat in the answer. I had thought this
happens because children find it so hard to take long turns the way that
adults do (you notice that the one unifying factor of all the utterances in
the skiing clip is economy of turn) so they are looking at ways to cut
corners.

So in "Dad Has Full Convo With Baby", Daddy turns the tables--the "full
convo" is essentially a series of utterances by the baby elaborated into
long turns by Daddy. This is complicated because the baby knows what
prosody is but hasn't really cracked articulation; it is a little like
watching somebody in a karaoke who has mastered the tune but hasn't got the
words, except that in the case the singer doesn't actually know what words
are. Notice how often Daddy says "know what I'm sayin'?" and actually means
something like "I (think I) know what you're sayin'".

I noted that Mike's skiing video ended with an example of a flustered
parent demonstrating the very opposite of communication by asking twice if
the child is alright and then, when the child produces a really
unprecedented utterance in reply (a fully communicative utterance that has
an intact first person subject) virtually dismissing the utterance with "I
know you're alright". There is a comparable moment in "Dad Has Full Convo
With Baby" where Dad says "REALLY!", using intonation that normally
communicates "I never thought of that before!" but he is actually saying "I
was thinking exactly the same thing!"  Again, I think what the parent is
trying to convey to the child is the function that Roy Harris calls
(dismissively) "telementation"--that language has the ability to produce
one and the same thought or one and the same feeling in two completely
different individuals. Vygotsky calls this "Ur Wir" (the proto-we or the
grand-we, which appears before the "we" that means "you and I", just as
grandparents are antecedent to parents). But Vygotsky thinks it's a
neoformation of infancy, not early childhood.

I agree that self-directed speech doesn't require first person subjects
(and in fact there are languages which never require first person subjects
at all, Korean being one of them). English and other Standard Average
European languages are outliers in their insistence on first person
subjects. You know that Fichte thought children should be given their first
birthday only when they correctly use first  person subjects; William James
argued that consciousness is essentially the moment when "I" is
differentiated from "me"; one way to explain the use of conjugation and
clitics in French is as an attempt to make the selfhood of the first person
more salient to children. The pep talk on "anti-helicopter parenting" and
the reinterpretation of care-giving as the fostering of self-confidence in
children shows how this moment is (over?)valued in Western child-raising.
We all want our kids to grow up to say "I'm a Busy Man"!

(I just noticed that my last two paragraphs--and this parenthetic
comment--begin with first person subjects....)

David Kellogg
Sangmyung University
,

New Article with Song Seon-mi in Early Years:

Un-naming names: Using Vygotsky’s language games and Halliday’s grammar to
study how children learn how names are made and unmade

Some free e-prints available at:

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/2C9HCKGJEYNVEKUGHYKV/full?target=10.1080*09575146.2020.1853682__;Lw!!Mih3wA!TbeF5-l6kM89jipVOikP5P42Ecb3cWHhb6QJEx9dvwfLw-wh9I4fA5Tsuesz4rXTNjW_4g$ 

New book forthcoming in 2021:

L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age.
Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David
Kellogg

On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 5:37 PM Bronwyn Parkin <bronwynparkin18@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thank you for the transcript David. It’s the ‘semanticised perception’
> that I find fascinating: the tricky bits in the skiing process that have to
> be brought to consciousness and vocalised because they’re not solidly
> internalised yet. It’s probably pedantic but I’m not so convinced that the
> two utterances with missing subjects h) and i) are issues of memory.
> Self-talk doesn’t require her to vocalise the subject: maybe the ‘I’m’ is
> ellipsed because it’s unnecessary.
>
>
>
> A group of colleagues, who call ourselves the ‘Vygotsky Nerds’ collect
> Youtube clips of young children’s talk, particularly in the early stages of
> development where they are clearly imitating. We need to do this in the
> world of Western education where any notion of ‘imitation’ is regarded as
> mindless and dangerous parroting or regurgitating, and because somehow many
> teachers we work with don’t understand learning as cultural. Here are a
> couple:
>
>
>
> Here's a lovely example of prosody leading articulation:
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IaNR8YGdow__;!!Mih3wA!TbeF5-l6kM89jipVOikP5P42Ecb3cWHhb6QJEx9dvwfLw-wh9I4fA5Tsuesz4rWr3CkWMw$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IaNR8YGdow__;!!Mih3wA!SikT6_qdkZeCdyPQZP80z7-wbiP-40cr2mpuI7sw6w53lep1_FtjtsbG_e_5vAmN3jKGCw$>
>
>
>
> I love this example of activity apprenticeship:
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-fNzwo1iMA__;!!Mih3wA!TbeF5-l6kM89jipVOikP5P42Ecb3cWHhb6QJEx9dvwfLw-wh9I4fA5Tsuesz4rV2aIb_Wg$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-fNzwo1iMA__;!!Mih3wA!SikT6_qdkZeCdyPQZP80z7-wbiP-40cr2mpuI7sw6w53lep1_FtjtsbG_e_5vAmdA4_e6w$>
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
> Behalf Of *David Kellogg
> *Sent:* Monday, 22 March 2021 4:18 PM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Language, thought, and Action in the Three Year
> Old
>
>
>
> Here's the language I got from the clip.
>
>
>
> (Do you like going slow or fast?)
>
> a) “Fast”
>
> b) “Bye, Daddy!”
>
> c) “Bye”
>
> d) “I’m making my lines.” (While making tracks in the snow.)
>
> e) “I love going around that root.”
>
> f) “Oh!”
>
> g) “Ice.”
>
> h) “Going over you, Ice.”
>
> i) “Going around you, Ice.”
>
> j) “Hi, One-eyed Monster.”
>
> k) (hmmming) “Ha!” “yo, yo, yo---Hi yi yi yi yi”
>
> (Do you wanna go do hoops?)
>
> l) “yeah”
>
> (sidestepping)
>
> m) “Like the boys”
>
> (Are you okay?)
>
> n) “yeah”
>
> (What?)
>
> o) “I’m okay.”
>
> (Yeah, I know you’re okay.)
>
>
>
> Vygotsky mostly talks about negation at three, but there are no negatives
> in this data. But Vygotsky also talks about semanticized perception, which
> we do see a lot of (d, e, g, h, i, j). As Mike says there are a lot of
> other developments which are more characteristic of speech development in
> the next zone of development (early childhood, where speech is the central
> neoformation). Halliday would note three:
>
>
>
> Phonologically--a strong preference for very closed vowels (/i/) and very
> open consonants (/h/ and /j/). So the idea of articulation as
> differentiated into vowels and consonants is not there yet, although the
> mastery of prosody (intonation and stress) is quite perfect. Score one for
> Halliday's theory that prosody leads articulation and ot the other way
> around.
>
>
>
> Grammatically, you can see that there are no indicative-declarative
> sentences that do not have the child herself as subject (d, e, and o).
> There are also two instances of declaratives which have a second person
> complement but no first person subject (h, i). The language in her
> environment is probably the other way around--most sentences are
> indicative-declaratives without first person subjects. That is true of all
> the language directed to the child in this clip and it's true of language
> quite generally. Score one for Halliday's assertion that memory does not
> allow children to repeat verbatim what they hear and forces non-volitional
> creativity in every turn.
>
>
>
> Semantically, you can see that almost all the utterances are emotionally
> motivated. Only o), is an indicative-declarative which communicates unknown
> information. Halliday says that zone of proximal development in children of
> this age is mastering the idea that language can be used to tell people
> things they didn't actually know. You can see how the dialogue
> surrounding "I"m okay" might make this function late emerging--the poor
> flustered parent asks if the child is okay TWICE and then tells her that he
> knows the answer anyway! We learn about communication in spite and not
> because of our parents....
>
>
>
> (That was pretty much how I skied when I was three years old, except we
> didn't have fancy gear or crash helmets, and we had to learn to use a rope
> tow....)
>
>
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Sangmyung University
>
> ,
>
>
>
> New Article with Song Seon-mi in Early Years:
>
>
>
> Un-naming names: Using Vygotsky’s language games and Halliday’s grammar to
> study how children learn how names are made and unmade
>
>
>
> Some free e-prints available at:
>
>
>
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/2C9HCKGJEYNVEKUGHYKV/full?target=10.1080*09575146.2020.1853682__;Lw!!Mih3wA!TbeF5-l6kM89jipVOikP5P42Ecb3cWHhb6QJEx9dvwfLw-wh9I4fA5Tsuesz4rXTNjW_4g$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.tandfonline.com/eprint/2C9HCKGJEYNVEKUGHYKV/full?target=10.1080*09575146.2020.1853682__;Lw!!Mih3wA!U9THGY4CwdbvkdiB8ONgh_ZytKqgdPVdNOwTupe39d1iSQfdhUwhoTRuPebu6FCzkf6pKQ$>
>
>
>
> New book forthcoming in 2021:
>
>
>
> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age.
>
> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David
> Kellogg
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 10:10 AM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Fantastic!  Thanks for sharing, Mike.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 1:20 PM mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> The video of a 3 year old on the ski slope (below) seems worth sharing in
> light of the broad interest here on developmental processes
>
> at this point in the lifespan.
>
> CNN is a commercial venture, so there is an ad at the beginning. I believe
> its worth the wait, apologies if it is not.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2021/03/20/skiing-toddler-dad-mics-up-british-columbia-orig-kj.cnn/video/playlists/atv-trending-videos/__;!!Mih3wA!TbeF5-l6kM89jipVOikP5P42Ecb3cWHhb6QJEx9dvwfLw-wh9I4fA5Tsuesz4rU8seeSvw$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.cnn.com/videos/us/2021/03/20/skiing-toddler-dad-mics-up-british-columbia-orig-kj.cnn/video/playlists/atv-trending-videos/__;!!Mih3wA!WptG-yaVZUs-BzaJ59wxEmcw4b6qgdcZ4faiJq3AjLWruwoLG-9ZimQk65uS1WA2n5zagQ$>
>
>
>
> mike
>
>
>
> --
>
> I[image: Angelus Novus]
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus__;!!Mih3wA!WptG-yaVZUs-BzaJ59wxEmcw4b6qgdcZ4faiJq3AjLWruwoLG-9ZimQk65uS1WDyIkdL3Q$>The
> Angel's View of History
>
> The organism, by its life activities, creates what is outside.  So
> organisms create the conditions of their own future
> which is different from their past" Richard Lewontin
>
> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TbeF5-l6kM89jipVOikP5P42Ecb3cWHhb6QJEx9dvwfLw-wh9I4fA5Tsuesz4rWi9WqipQ$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!WptG-yaVZUs-BzaJ59wxEmcw4b6qgdcZ4faiJq3AjLWruwoLG-9ZimQk65uS1WBpdqUMuw$>
>
> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!WptG-yaVZUs-BzaJ59wxEmcw4b6qgdcZ4faiJq3AjLWruwoLG-9ZimQk65uS1WBZaJXgdQ$>
>
> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu.
>
> Narrative history of LCHC:  lchcautobio.ucsd.edu.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20210323/ca12c87c/attachment.html 