[Xmca-l] Re: Translations - Shona and Russian

Mon Nov 30 14:13:14 PST 2020

Many thanks to Zaza, whose translation of Tuku's song I'll be taking into
my class on Ethics, Emotions, and Education tonight. I think you can see
from her translation where you can go wrong with Google Translate, which
is, after all, just a way of linking up bits of texts that have been
previously translated by humans. Using the Google Translate function for
Shona, I thought the song referred to "raped by your roomate". Zaza says it
means a husband, which is expressed as the payer of bride price. At first I
thought this was an accident of history, similar to the fact that our word
"husband" means someone who looks after pigs, but of course if you listen
to Tuku's song  Haasati Aziva you can see that if it is an accident of
history it's a very recent one that still casts a shadow. As Mary
said--this is the stuff of a pandemic: systemic, institutionalized, and as
a result blithe, indifferent and unaccountable power. As with AIDS, so too
with Covid 19.

Anthony--I said I don't speak Russian. I started studying in 2005 (after a
short exchange with Mike) and took four years of formal classes in the
language, six to eight hours a week. I have been spending at least eight
hours a week reading Russian ever since. So when I look at a paragraph of
Vygotsky in Russian I don't usually see any words that I don't recognize.
When I do, I do what any Russian would do and look them up. Google
Translate works as a bilingual dictionary only the entries are larger than
the word and smaller than the clause. But human translators function more
like thesauruses, where the entries are not wordings but meanings. For that
reason I tend to use "Reverso", which gives whole paragraphs from the data
base so you can see the context. .

When I meet Nikolai or Anna, I find it impossible to use more than a few
well-known phrases in Russian (mostly agreeable things like "Of course" and
"You're right!", which is quite unlike my normal way of thinking...). So I
think I do not speak Russian, although I have some reading knowledge of it.
Operationally what that means is that when I publish a translation, I need
a native speaker looking over my shoulder. Since I'm mostly translating
into Korean, I actually need two, and I am fortunate that I was born with
two shoulders, and even more fortunate that I have Dr. Kim Yongho, who is
better than I am in both languages. (But Yongho learned his Russian from
Rosetta Stone!)

I have no objection to disentangling threads, but I don't really agree with
Antti (who, unless I am quite mistaken, also speaks a language that utterly
lacks articles) that this all belongs on a separate thread. To me, anyway,
the relevant points are three.

a) Racism isn't an interpersonal matter, and still less is it an
intra-personal one: it's social, cultural, historical, material. That's why
we say it is systemic. And if it's systemic, it is part of the way we look
at other languages. Since Lewontin demonstrated the non-viability of race
as a unit of analysis for human communities, language has become a stand in
for race, and views about language are a stand-in for views about race.
That was, after all, where Arturo was looking.

b) One way that views about language have become a stand-in for views about
race is that languages which lack articles are seen as deviant from some
universal grammar and hence defective in some way. My colleague's
"article-drop" parameter is actually part of a pattern of thinking that has
been part of mainstream linguistics since the late fifties and early
sixties, and is exemplified in the "Principles and Parameters" model of
Universal Grammar. Chomsky argued that languages like Italian which do not
require grammatical subjects as English does must have a setting that
permits the omission of this universally obligatory element. This is
nonsense. Italian does not drop pronouns; there's really no "pro" there to
drop. We do not, after all, go around saying that English is a
Korean-honorific-drop-language. Those who assume that languages are
genetically hard-wired (the LAD or the magical gene that according to
Chomsky created the capacity for human thought or the supposed correlation
between mutations in mitochondrial DNA and languages that was alleged by
Cavalli-Sforza) are making assumptions that are really not that different
from assumptions previously made about the cranial capacity of lesser
breeds without the law.

c) Vygotsky was as much a man of his time as we are of our own. Some
writers (c.f. Aaro Toomela on the Cultural Praxis site recently) have
argued that Vygotsky believed in "primitive languages", e.g. the Bantu
languages, to which Shona belongs. As Zaza makes abundantly clear, Shona is
not primitive by any conceivable standard, and I have seen no convincing
evidence that Vygotsky ever made this assumption (he did quote missionaries
who clearly did make the assumption, but he is quite scathing about them on
precisely this point). Certainly the idea that some languages have only the
"indicative" or the "nominating" function but not the "signifying" function
is not a Vygotskyan one: a language that cannot signify is not a human
language, and any language that can signify can signify a concept.
Languages can vary according to the meanings that they actually do express,
just as registers within a language do. But human meaning potential is, if
not infinite (we will not be around forever), at least undetermined and
probably indeterminate.

David Kellogg
Sangmyung University

New Book with Nikolai Veresov
L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology
Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai
Veresov
See free downloadable pdf at:

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!SzpiY8z2Z24lFuzO5PXhgoncACl4IAtIJzsBkUHd_y6FoP3gNy59eIVZe7xe6UKdUaMciw$ 

Forthcoming in 2020:
L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age.
Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David
Kellogg

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 5:08 AM Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:

> I translated Piaget's book on dialectics with the aid of google. There was
> much work both pre- and post-googletranslate though. Part of this I put
> down to understanding the domain, just as one can question translations if
> one knows what they are about.
>
> Huw
>
> On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 at 18:53, Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Zaza,
>>
>> I had no idea that one could translate books without really speaking the
>> original language, as David claims about himself.
>> Nor did I realize the extent to which translating is about reading
>> between the lines, along with the lines themselves. Such an interesting
>> topic . . .
>>
>> Perhaps of interest:
>> 1. A brief anecdote from David about a current Korean translation/summary
>> project: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGU5zV6zbLI__;!!Mih3wA!SzpiY8z2Z24lFuzO5PXhgoncACl4IAtIJzsBkUHd_y6FoP3gNy59eIVZe7xe6UJw-D7lOQ$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGU5zV6zbLI__;!!Mih3wA!XQxtj2IoXb7_362eZ5KfjzUbcujo3z8eN1rDP2n6Qw-EPNOKDlCOfjzQOwnnShti9Nhkyw$>
>> (re: Vygotsky on emotions)
>> 2. An old xmca post on translating Vygotsky into Korean:
>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2011_05.dir/msg00509.html
>>
>> I thought these were neat to hear about and maybe enjoyable or others as
>> well.
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 3:30 PM Zaza Kabayadondo <
>> zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm moving this to a new thread...
>>>
>>> Thank you for your question, David. I didn't realize people were using
>>> Google Translate. It's great for some languages - not so much for anything
>>> from Southern Africa at least as far as I've observed.
>>>
>>> Yes, I do speak Shona. I like to distinguish between functional Shona
>>> and idiomatic Shona. Functional Shona is literal and idiomatic Shona is
>>> literary (though spoken). I'm not a Shona linguist so I'm making up terms
>>> for the distinction I perceive but there might already be a convention for
>>> how Shona linguists describe the difference. Functional Shona is what you
>>> will hear people using on the streets. It is a more literal or explicit way
>>> of speaking and very similar to European meaning and sensemaking. In
>>> functional Shona you might say "I am tired." "She arrived yesterday." It
>>> some contexts it is considered rather crass to speak so directly of your
>>> feelings, wants, needs. I contrast this to idiomatic Shona which is a
>>> version of the language our elders spoke, it reflects pre-colonial Shona
>>> culture and thinking because it "beats around the bush". You would rarely
>>> directly ask a question, everything was a metaphor, a vague suggestion,
>>> never explicitly spelt out. It is more diplomatic, more evasive, and can be
>>> problematic when it comes to talking about social or political issues. Tuku
>>> sings in this idiomatic style. Tuku's song *Bvuma* is the best example
>>> of his style of which allows for double entendre (He is saying "Tolerance
>>> has faded" but he could also mean "Just accept that you're old."
>>>
>>> Todii is about HIV/AIDS. Originally, "utachiwana" meant any virus or
>>> germ, the underlying cause of an illness, but over time the only virus
>>> people talk about is HIV. (In "Hutachiwana" the "h" is a modifier
>>> emphasizes you mean "the virus"). The style is call-and-response which is
>>> typical in Shona folk music, both traditional and contemporary. The call
>>> and its response should be read as one sentence.
>>>
>>> As for the lyrics in question:
>>> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
>>> *Translation: How it must hurt to be raped by the one you live with...**If
>>> you have a virus *
>>> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma** ...(Kana uinahwo
>>> utachiwana)
>>> *Translation:** How it must hurt to be raped by the man** who married
>>> you ...**If you have a virus *
>>> **The literal meaning is "by the one who paid roora (lobola/bride price)"
>>> Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
>>> *Translation: When he knows you have the virus...If you have a virus*
>>> Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
>>> *Translation: **And you know you have the virus...If you have a virus*
>>> In the last two lines the response almost implies "hypothetically, let's
>>> say you have a virus." And for me this is really where the song touches on
>>> the sensibility of HIV/AIDS as it was experienced in Zimbabwe in the moment
>>> of the song. Not knowing who has it, suspecting who has it etc. Tuku was
>>> masterful with his play on words and structure.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 2:56 AM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Zaza--
>>>>
>>>> Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will
>>>> tell you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more
>>>> time on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the
>>>> list with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak
>>>> Shona, or at least understand a little.
>>>>
>>>> So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku
>>>> (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've
>>>> been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get
>>>> that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making
>>>> certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other
>>>> issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe
>>>> you can help me?
>>>>
>>>> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye
>>>> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
>>>> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma
>>>> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
>>>> Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana
>>>> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
>>>> Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana
>>>> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
>>>>
>>>> So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get
>>>> infected". But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate?
>>>>
>>>> On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very
>>>> serious charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its
>>>> seriousness. But as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of
>>>> rendering the charge unproveable, by removing its class content and
>>>> rendering it a purely subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I
>>>> hope), Arturo and others tend to raise this sort of thing in private
>>>> off-list material that is so much at variance with their public writings
>>>> that it fairly attracts the charge of hypocrisy or at least political
>>>> timidity. After all, if you really suspect your interlocutor of racism,
>>>> it's incumbent on you to keep your mouth and not just your eyes open. But
>>>> you've got to put money where your mouth is: you have to provide some
>>>> evidence (e.g. the paper that Harshad circulated on the list not too long
>>>> ago). There are important scientific issues we need to discuss which are
>>>> actually not unrelated to the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you
>>>> can accurately judge the language proficiency of a person by their race or
>>>> national origin (as I have done in the second paragraph above). Not
>>>> unrelated. But not identical to either, else I would not have written that
>>>> paragraph.
>>>>
>>>> Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority
>>>> of people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit
>>>> linguistics from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children
>>>> tend to drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan
>>>> premise that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which
>>>> are hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that
>>>> means is that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's
>>>> about "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do
>>>> you mean? The cat kind!)
>>>>
>>>> But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian
>>>> developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist,
>>>> because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become
>>>> nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages
>>>> without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g.
>>>> Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell
>>>> out", as the Chomskyans say).
>>>>
>>>> Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know?
>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!SzpiY8z2Z24lFuzO5PXhgoncACl4IAtIJzsBkUHd_y6FoP3gNy59eIVZe7xe6UIsNixZgg$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!QePX9kKiZVk8QmwFWMwYJblxjbu3_Pd2XeZXyOV1YZVr6VOrUaRfbuTZlUpgqPtWWiBSSw$>
>>>>
>>>> David Kellogg
>>>> Sangmyung University
>>>>
>>>> New Book with Nikolai Veresov
>>>> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology
>>>> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and
>>>> Nikolai Veresov
>>>> See free downloadable pdf at:
>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!SzpiY8z2Z24lFuzO5PXhgoncACl4IAtIJzsBkUHd_y6FoP3gNy59eIVZe7xe6UKdUaMciw$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!QePX9kKiZVk8QmwFWMwYJblxjbu3_Pd2XeZXyOV1YZVr6VOrUaRfbuTZlUpgqPuZA6tlEA$>
>>>>
>>>> Forthcoming in 2020:
>>>> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age.
>>>> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and
>>>> David Kellogg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject
>>>>>> matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the *development
>>>>>> of human higher psychological functions*. (How that is "left,"
>>>>>> "right," or otherwise is beyond me.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult)
>>>>> developmental stages.
>>>>>
>>>>> Huw
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly:
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!SzpiY8z2Z24lFuzO5PXhgoncACl4IAtIJzsBkUHd_y6FoP3gNy59eIVZe7xe6UKoj4rMLg$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!RxBugkPeSU52iebyZbytaRN6b8sia_hpIDOL6pIpcLsKG3mACdIY-Pl17TPuYPBbMKqBLQ$>
>>>
>>
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