[Xmca-l] Re: Translations - Shona and Russian

[Huw Lloyd]

I translated Piaget's book on dialectics with the aid of google. There was
much work both pre- and post-googletranslate though. Part of this I put
down to understanding the domain, just as one can question translations if
one knows what they are about.

Huw

On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 at 18:53, Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com> wrote:

> Zaza,
>
> I had no idea that one could translate books without really speaking the
> original language, as David claims about himself.
> Nor did I realize the extent to which translating is about reading between
> the lines, along with the lines themselves. Such an interesting topic . . .
>
> Perhaps of interest:
> 1. A brief anecdote from David about a current Korean translation/summary
> project: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGU5zV6zbLI__;!!Mih3wA!Ro-IKyPr2ykPdPPgTcPshFRHwww_0_-ShqyhJCRriik1kMNEnfVjCgzoi6mMJpv57QImhw$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGU5zV6zbLI__;!!Mih3wA!XQxtj2IoXb7_362eZ5KfjzUbcujo3z8eN1rDP2n6Qw-EPNOKDlCOfjzQOwnnShti9Nhkyw$>
> (re: Vygotsky on emotions)
> 2. An old xmca post on translating Vygotsky into Korean:
> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2011_05.dir/msg00509.html
>
> I thought these were neat to hear about and maybe enjoyable or others as
> well.
>
> Anthony
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 3:30 PM Zaza Kabayadondo <
> zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm moving this to a new thread...
>>
>> Thank you for your question, David. I didn't realize people were using
>> Google Translate. It's great for some languages - not so much for anything
>> from Southern Africa at least as far as I've observed.
>>
>> Yes, I do speak Shona. I like to distinguish between functional Shona and
>> idiomatic Shona. Functional Shona is literal and idiomatic Shona is
>> literary (though spoken). I'm not a Shona linguist so I'm making up terms
>> for the distinction I perceive but there might already be a convention for
>> how Shona linguists describe the difference. Functional Shona is what you
>> will hear people using on the streets. It is a more literal or explicit way
>> of speaking and very similar to European meaning and sensemaking. In
>> functional Shona you might say "I am tired." "She arrived yesterday." It
>> some contexts it is considered rather crass to speak so directly of your
>> feelings, wants, needs. I contrast this to idiomatic Shona which is a
>> version of the language our elders spoke, it reflects pre-colonial Shona
>> culture and thinking because it "beats around the bush". You would rarely
>> directly ask a question, everything was a metaphor, a vague suggestion,
>> never explicitly spelt out. It is more diplomatic, more evasive, and can be
>> problematic when it comes to talking about social or political issues. Tuku
>> sings in this idiomatic style. Tuku's song *Bvuma* is the best example
>> of his style of which allows for double entendre (He is saying "Tolerance
>> has faded" but he could also mean "Just accept that you're old."
>>
>> Todii is about HIV/AIDS. Originally, "utachiwana" meant any virus or
>> germ, the underlying cause of an illness, but over time the only virus
>> people talk about is HIV. (In "Hutachiwana" the "h" is a modifier
>> emphasizes you mean "the virus"). The style is call-and-response which is
>> typical in Shona folk music, both traditional and contemporary. The call
>> and its response should be read as one sentence.
>>
>> As for the lyrics in question:
>> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
>> *Translation: How it must hurt to be raped by the one you live with...**If
>> you have a virus *
>> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma** ...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
>> *Translation:** How it must hurt to be raped by the man** who married
>> you ...**If you have a virus *
>> **The literal meaning is "by the one who paid roora (lobola/bride price)"
>> Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
>> *Translation: When he knows you have the virus...If you have a virus*
>> Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
>> *Translation: **And you know you have the virus...If you have a virus*
>> In the last two lines the response almost implies "hypothetically, let's
>> say you have a virus." And for me this is really where the song touches on
>> the sensibility of HIV/AIDS as it was experienced in Zimbabwe in the moment
>> of the song. Not knowing who has it, suspecting who has it etc. Tuku was
>> masterful with his play on words and structure.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 2:56 AM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Zaza--
>>>
>>> Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell
>>> you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time
>>> on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list
>>> with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona,
>>> or at least understand a little.
>>>
>>> So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku
>>> (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've
>>> been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get
>>> that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making
>>> certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other
>>> issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe
>>> you can help me?
>>>
>>> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye
>>> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
>>> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma
>>> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
>>> Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana
>>> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
>>> Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana
>>> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
>>>
>>> So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected".
>>> But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate?
>>>
>>> On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very
>>> serious charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its
>>> seriousness. But as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of
>>> rendering the charge unproveable, by removing its class content and
>>> rendering it a purely subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I
>>> hope), Arturo and others tend to raise this sort of thing in private
>>> off-list material that is so much at variance with their public writings
>>> that it fairly attracts the charge of hypocrisy or at least political
>>> timidity. After all, if you really suspect your interlocutor of racism,
>>> it's incumbent on you to keep your mouth and not just your eyes open. But
>>> you've got to put money where your mouth is: you have to provide some
>>> evidence (e.g. the paper that Harshad circulated on the list not too long
>>> ago). There are important scientific issues we need to discuss which are
>>> actually not unrelated to the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you
>>> can accurately judge the language proficiency of a person by their race or
>>> national origin (as I have done in the second paragraph above). Not
>>> unrelated. But not identical to either, else I would not have written that
>>> paragraph.
>>>
>>> Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority
>>> of people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit
>>> linguistics from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children
>>> tend to drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan
>>> premise that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which
>>> are hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that
>>> means is that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's
>>> about "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do
>>> you mean? The cat kind!)
>>>
>>> But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian
>>> developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist,
>>> because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become
>>> nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages
>>> without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g.
>>> Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell
>>> out", as the Chomskyans say).
>>>
>>> Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know?
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!Ro-IKyPr2ykPdPPgTcPshFRHwww_0_-ShqyhJCRriik1kMNEnfVjCgzoi6mMJpuLZyT4fg$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!QePX9kKiZVk8QmwFWMwYJblxjbu3_Pd2XeZXyOV1YZVr6VOrUaRfbuTZlUpgqPtWWiBSSw$>
>>>
>>> David Kellogg
>>> Sangmyung University
>>>
>>> New Book with Nikolai Veresov
>>> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology
>>> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and
>>> Nikolai Veresov
>>> See free downloadable pdf at:
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!Ro-IKyPr2ykPdPPgTcPshFRHwww_0_-ShqyhJCRriik1kMNEnfVjCgzoi6mMJpvTmq_kjw$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!QePX9kKiZVk8QmwFWMwYJblxjbu3_Pd2XeZXyOV1YZVr6VOrUaRfbuTZlUpgqPuZA6tlEA$>
>>>
>>> Forthcoming in 2020:
>>> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age.
>>> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and
>>> David Kellogg
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject
>>>>> matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the *development
>>>>> of human higher psychological functions*. (How that is "left,"
>>>>> "right," or otherwise is beyond me.)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult)
>>>> developmental stages.
>>>>
>>>> Huw
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly:
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!Ro-IKyPr2ykPdPPgTcPshFRHwww_0_-ShqyhJCRriik1kMNEnfVjCgzoi6mMJps8OAwcmA$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!RxBugkPeSU52iebyZbytaRN6b8sia_hpIDOL6pIpcLsKG3mACdIY-Pl17TPuYPBbMKqBLQ$>
>>
>
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