[Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ?

[mike cole]

This is a point I have struggled to make for many years, Andy. I didn't
know I was quoting Hegel:

Hegel:
'Everything is both immediate and mediated."

The challenge is to rise to the concrete with this abstraction or its just
la la la.

mike

On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 6:42 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:

> Of course, Annalisa, I agree that Science is a moral practice, but that is
> not what is at issue here.
>
>
> Two issues concern me with what you have said: (1) the question of "who
> decides?" and (2) the quantification of development as in "more evolved"
> bringing with it the implication of moral value attached to development.
>
>
> (1) The discovery of the "social construction of reality" was an
> achievement of the Left, the progressives, with people like the Critical
> Psychologists, the theorists of postmodernism and post-structural feminists
> in the 1970s an 80s, who exposed how taken-for-granted facts along with the
> truths of Science were on closer inspection ideological products of
> dominant social groups. Of course, how reality is *seen *is an
> inseparable part of how reality *is*. This insight led to a range of
> powerful theoretical and practical critiques of all aspects of society.
> Feminists offered an alternative way of interpreting reality as a powerful
> lever for changing that reality by undermining patriarchal structures and
> certainties. So far so good. But today, in 2020, it is not progressives who
> are asking "who decides?" and calling into question the very idea of truth
> and fact: it is Donald Trump and Rudi Giuliani. Quite honestly, this
> outcome was always implicit in the postmodern and poststructuralist
> critique. Or, could I say: "Donald Trump is a more evolved form of Judith
> Butler" if I thought in those terms, which I don't.
>
>
> Hegel takes up this problem with the maxim: "Everything is both immediate
> and mediated." Yes, social interests dominant in a certain social domain by
> definition determine what is true in that domain (though remember, every
> social domain is finite and has its boundaries). But that is not just by
> saying something about an* independently existing* reality which can be
> subject to any number of *alternative* representations (as Kant would
> have it), but rather the dominant social interests *determine that
> reality itself*. They do that both *immediately *and *through the ideal
> representation* of that reality which is *part of that reality*. You
> can't "decide" by a purely discursive moves - you have to *change *that
> reality. You do that with the weapons of both theoretical and practical
> critique.
>
>
> What this means is that you can study the documents (assuming you weren't
> personally present) of some past dispute and see with your own eyes how and
> why some people formulated new word meanings, and began to use these new
> word meaning(s) in their own communication, and thereby facilitated others
> from using this word meaning, and the relevant concepts, in their work, and
> so on.
>
>
> (2) As perhaps I have illustrated in my example above that there is no
> implication of "higher" in development. In my own education, it was Sylvia
> Scribner's "Uses of History" (1985) which explained this to me. "Higher"
> implies comparison and comparison in turn implies *interchangeability*.
> For example, if I was considering whether to emigrate to the US or France,
> I might consider public safety as a metric and decide that France was
> superior to the US and make my decision accordingly. Or, I might consider
> job availability for an English-speaking monoglot like me as the metric,
> and decide that the US was superior to France. But to decide that the US is
> superior to France or vice versa without the choice and the relevant metric
> is the moral judgment which neither you nor I find acceptable. They're just
> different.
>
>
> Understanding word meanings and concepts entails an analysis of *both *how
> the word is used in the field in question, and the history as to how it
> came to be so. Using the concept of "germ cell," I can work my way back and
> forth through an etymological field, forensically, like a detective, until
> I can connect the particular use of the word which emerged as a germ cell
> at some earlier time, in some situation where the implication of choosing
> that word meaning was abundantly clear to all, which allows me to see
> *why* someone felt the need (now forgotten) to introduce the word meaning
> and what it's absence would mean here and now, where it is already taken
> for granted.
>
>
> My apologies for the unacceptably long message, which is much against my
> own mores, but I don't know how to clarify these issues more succinctly.
>
>
> Andy
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!TLrWUBWNIMJR-d4Rr1HJ5aNy8a9feC14rEE8Y9KK_yg-3NYAubzMD2iHXcVRpSlw_w_wdw$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!TLrWUBWNIMJR-d4Rr1HJ5aNy8a9feC14rEE8Y9KK_yg-3NYAubzMD2iHXcVRpSkhfCnwZw$>
> On 20/05/2020 3:51 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote:
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> I suppose the issue about being on a branch of evolution has more to do
> with who decides what the branch is. Is it time? or is it topical? or is it
> based upon the interlocutors?
>
> If we say one word usage is more "evolved" than another, I suppose I am
> just pushing back on that because who decides what is more evolved?
>
> Forgive me, but can we ever say that if something is more "evolved" it is
> actually better? What do we actually mean when we say something is evolved?
>
> What if one term lasts over a longer arc of time than another usage? It
> seems if we use the evolution rubric, it would be considered more "fit"
> than the one that is changing over the same period of time.
>
> I do find it helpful that you to bring up the germ cell and how that
> concept pertains to analysis. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm glad to
> know that to assign the parentheses does entail an ideological move, and
> that that can't be escaped. As long as we know what the ideology is, there
> is transparency in our analysis.
>
> I do think moral evaluations are worth including on all discussions, not
> necessarily to forbid discussions or scientific pursuits, but to use as
> landmarks to keep our bearings. Scientific concepts have a way of not being
> inclusive of contexts (i.e., lived experiences) or being grounded, right?
>
> Perhaps this is what made Vygotsky such a humane and compassionate
> scientific thinker is that he could understand how scientific concepts can
> be abusive tools for oppression. Anchoring them in lived experience shows
> their validity. Would this be a fair statement to you, Andy?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Annalisa
> ------------------------------
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Andy Blunden
> <andyb@marxists.org> <andyb@marxists.org>
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:23 PM
> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ?
>
>
> *  [EXTERNAL]*
>
> Annalisa, "where does history start"? Effectively there is no starting
> point, and the choosing of a starting point is always an ideological move.
> Foucault does this to great effect. Ilyenkov deals with this in his book
> "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital" and explains the need for
> what he calls the "logical-historical method." To short circuit the
> complexities of reading Ilyenkov, in CHAT we rely on the identification of
> the unit of analysis or "germ cell" to anchor our historical investigation.
>
>
> "Sociogenesis" is just Latin for "social development," the word I used.
> But if you are going to ascribe a moral value to "evolution" and then
> reject the concept on that basis, you'd better also reject "development"
> and all the "geneses" and evolution of species by natural selection and all
> modern biology while you are at it. Alternatively, you could choose *not*
> to ascribe moral values to scientific concepts, then the whole of science
> is open to you.
>
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!VTGuGy4gvXj-8N5E9YCj2IevXlVoBhK7UBQ37lx10IRWhO4lMbcXmdD-gzoCEFYW2qyYWA$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!VTGuGy4gvXj-8N5E9YCj2IevXlVoBhK7UBQ37lx10IRWhO4lMbcXmdD-gzoCEFZ5oaoZdg$>
> On 18/05/2020 3:25 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote:
>
> Hi Andy (& VO's),
>
> I think that that was my point, that we cannot capture everything in the
> word to describe the theory. And that is because of the limit of our
> language.
>
> Even where genesis actually is, where something starts can be difficult to
> pinpoint. I mean where does History actually start?
>
> These words that you mention phylogenesis, ethnogenesis, ontogenesis, are
> words that are like brackets of a pair of parentheses. Who decides where to
> put them? (And why not sociogenesis?)
>
> I'm not sure it's correct to say the choice of a word locates the user on
> a branch of a cultural evolutionary tree, because then that starts to mean
> that one speaker is more evolved than another based on the use of a word.
>
> It might be better to say that the choice of a word locates the user to a
> particular context. I could live with that.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Annalisa
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Andy Blunden
> <andyb@marxists.org> <andyb@marxists.org>
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:27 PM
> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ?
>
>
> *  [EXTERNAL]*
>
> You're never going to succeed in formally capturing the full scope of the
> theory in a word, Annalisa. "socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity
> theory" still leave out biology and Darwin, which is a part of our theory,
> too.
>
>
> It is sometimes said that human development is the coincidence of *four*
> processes: *phylogenesis *(i.e., evolution of the species), cultural
> development (*ethnogenesis*, the development of technology *and *language),
> *social development* (one and the same culture has different classes and
> political groups side by side) and *ontogenesis *(even twins can grow up
> very differently according to the experiences (*perezhivaniya*) they go
> through). I tried to describe this in:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb92jQ2OrA$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/ontogenesis.htm__;!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaXB3YgOwg$>
>
>
> But if you look into the history of a word what you will inevitably find
> is that at some point (in time and social space) there was some dispute,
> and this dispute was either (1) resolved by both parties agreeing and
> marking this agreement by the coining of a new word meaning or the dropping
> of a word meaning altogether, or (2) there is a split and one or both sides
> of the split adopt a word meaning which distinguishes them from the other
> side (structuralism's favourite trope) or variations on the above scenarios.
>
>
> So the choice of a word tends to locate the user on a branch in the
> cultural evolutionary tree.
>
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaXzee78rQ$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!Vn9T05o4yQ8JmcN8k0Rcq65ZDZvXCxCkPwjrS8BQz_aRy-V218xJbfgO-7EiQaXY03UVbw$>
> On 17/05/2020 11:56 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote:
>
> David K & VO's
>
> What pray-tell is an anthropologue?
>
> I am divided (pun intended) about saying that sociocultural = social +
> culture, when they are intertwined holistically. To me, sociocultural
> points to a space in between, or perhaps better said to a context of
> interactions between individuals (who form a society) that are easily
> accepted among them and practiced over time.
>
> We can conceptually parse out the social and the cultural, but don't we do
> that because of the words and not because of the ostensible reality going
> on interactionally? Can we always understand something by dissecting it
> into parts?
>
> Again, this seems to be the limit of language, not of the conceptual
> context or content.
>
> In a sense to use the term "sociocultural" is to grab the tail of the
> tiger. The tail of the tiger is still the tiger, but perhaps a more
> manageable one than to grab its head.
>
> Perhaps this is why Vygotskians just call themselves Vygotskians to align
> themselves with the source of the first theories rather than to later
> conceptions and other developments (i.e. Leontiev, etc). Just thinking out
> loud.
>
> Another argument is that if we want to be all inclusive, then we have to
> include tool-use, as it's not the social, the culture, and the history, but
> also the language and tools used. I realize some practitioners would say
> that language is no different than a tool, but I feel language is
> different, even though it may have a similar cognitive response in the mind
> as would using a tool.
>
> Activity suggests tool use, though not always. Consider dance, or
> storytelling, or going for a walk.
>
> How about: socioculturahistoricalinguapparatical activity theory???
>
> Yes! I am writing this a little tongue in cheek. I hope you do not mind.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Annalsia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of David Kellogg
> <dkellogg60@gmail.com> <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:14 PM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ?
>
>
> *  [EXTERNAL]*
> It's a very domain-specific umbrella, like those cane-brollies that go
> with a bowler. "Sociocultural" is strongly preferred used in second
> language acquisition, thanks to the influence of Merrill Swain, Jim Lantolf
> and Matthew Poehner; I have never seen "cultural historical" used in this
> literature. But "cultural-historical" is similarly preferred in psychology
> and anthropology, thanks to the influence of J.V. Wertsch, Mike
> Cole, Martin Packer and Andy Blunden; that's really why we are having this
> discussion on what "socio-cultural" might mean on a list largely populated
> by roving psychologists and nomadic anthropologues.
>
> Interestingly, the Francophones prefer "historico-cultural", using the
> argument that you can understand the process without the product but not
> the product without the process. I stopped using "sociocultural" because I
> thought it was redundant, but now I am really not sure of this: it seems to
> me that the relationship is a similar one--you can study society as process
> without studying its cultural product (e.g. as demographics, economics,
> statistics) but you can't really study culture without some understanding
> of the process of its formation.
>
> There was a similar disagreement in systemic functional linguistics
> between Halliday and Jim Martin over the term "socio-semiotic". Martin said
> that it was redundant, because there couldn't be any semiotic without
> society. Halliday rather flippantly replied that ants had a society without
> a semiotics, and at the time it seemed to me that this was a non
> sequitur, first of all because ants don't really have a society in
> our sense (precisely because there is no such thing as an ant history
> separate from phylogenesis on the one hand and ontogenesis on the other)
> and secondly because ants most definitely do have a semiotics, albeit one
> based on chemistry and not perception as ours is.
>
> It seems to me, in retrospect, that the relationship between the semiotic
> and the social is much more like the relationship between the social and
> the biological, or even the biological and the chemical. The semiotic is a
> certain level of organization that the social has, but there are
> other levels, just as biology is a certain kind of chemical organization
> which does not exclude other, nonbiological ways organizing chemicals,
> and chemistry is a kind of physical organization which doesn't exclude
> sub-chemical organizations.
>
> Perhaps we can think of the relationship between culture and society in
> the same way?
>
> David Kellogg
> Sangmyung University
>
> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
> Outlines, Spring 2020
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb_od1MviQ$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!QwnjuGWv1M4ZX6kMNV7A1nO46fLjKXBSeMFcdiKYZQb3gv2FV78Tq_DhJK9vM5IH1niRwQ$>
>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *
> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*"
>  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb-i3ZLWsg$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QwnjuGWv1M4ZX6kMNV7A1nO46fLjKXBSeMFcdiKYZQb3gv2FV78Tq_DhJK9vM5JySLOtJA$>
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
>
> 4. As an umbrella term for any sociogenetic approach.
>
> Isn’t that its current usage?
>
> David
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
> Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:31 PM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ?
>
>
>
> Hi Andy, and VO's,
>
>
>
> What fascinates me is that the word "sociocultural" has a lot of different
> facets in terms of how the word was used in different contexts. It seems
> there are three I've been able to pick out.
>
>    1. as a derisive term in early Soviet history.
>    2. as an empowering term from Latin American voices.
>    3. as a relaxed term of the Marxist "brand" at the height of the Cold
>    War in the US.
>
> I'm not sure if I've done justice in the manner that I've represented
> that, but it is a well-intended attempt. Are there others?
>
>
>
> What I don't understand fully is whether there must be ONE explanation how
> the term came to be, or ONE definition of what it actually means. Can't it
> be polysemantic?  polycontextual?
>
>
>
> If that is what's happening, then it makes sense that there would be an
> ongoing controversy about which one is the right definition or reason for
> not using it, depending on the interlocutor.
>
>
>
> If we are to talk about who used the term first, and that's where the
> value/authority holds, then all that tells us is that for those who value
> who used the term first. that's where the authority is.
>
>
>
> If we talk about the emotional attachment of the word as it is used in
> context and that's where the value/authority holds, then that tells us for
> those who value the most personal attachment to the word, that's where the
> authority is.
>
>
>
> If we talk about how the word was used functionally, where the
> value/authority holds in its efficacy, then all that tells is that for
> those who value whether the word works or not, that's where the authority
> is.
>
>
>
> I'm not sure one can put any of one these over the other two (or if there
> are more than that, if there are more). All we can say I suppose is whether
> in a particular context is the word "sociocultural" appropriate or not?
>
>
>
> I do find that this debate has begun to have its own life, this debate
> over the use of a word. I've begun doubt it will ever cease.
>
>
>
> One day the discussion will be how one used to debate about the term,
> first everyone was this way about the word, than they were that way about
> the word, and many large camps were formed in XXXX year to say why the word
> should not be used, but then X years later other large camps formed to say
> it is fine to use the word. I suppose it will only be when the debate
> ceases will it come to pass that the debate will be forgotten. But will
> that cessation solidify the use or non-use of the word?
>
>
>
> I understand the reasons for saying "cultural psychology." But for those
> swimming in a culture where behaviorism is considered the soul of
> psychology, adding "cultural" becomes a sad necessity.  Even then, that
> necessity only depends upon how one sees culture, as either as an additive,
> an integral ingredient of psychology, or its basis. I believe I've read on
> the list that one should be able to say "psychology" and just *know* that
> it includes culture. I don't think we are there yet.
>
>
>
> Then that would be my argument to use "sociocultural" to understand it
> includes history. CHAT is sort of a defensive term (well, it is an
> acronym). But then... it leaves out "social" and is that OK? We certainly
> should not say sociocultural historical activity theory because that
> acronym is very unfulfilling. What is nice about CHAT though is that to
> chat is an activity of speech, and there is a implied meaning that also
> pertains to Vygotskian theories, and therefore meaningful.
>
>
>
> In a sense, it's not the meaning that we are arguing over, but how the
> limitations of our particular language fails to convey a meaning with such
> precision that it thereby to parses away any other inappropriate meaning.
> I'm just not sure that the project is one that can be achieved
> successfully, even if it succeeds for an interim.
>
>
>
> At the same time I can see why story of the elephant and the blind men
> also have a part to play in our understandings and assumptions.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
> Annalisa
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org>
> *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:49 PM
> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ?
>
>
>
> *  [EXTERNAL]*
>
> Annalisa, I have only been talking and writing about Vygotsky and co.
> since about 2000 and have been openly Marxist since the 1960s (indeed,
> Vygotsky is core to how I understand Marx) and never had any reason not to
> be. But it is true that when Mike first went to Moscow, it was at the
> height of the Cold War, and when he and others first brought Vygotsky's
> ideas to the USA, there was a lot of resistance to their Marxist content. I
> think the naming issue only arose as Vygotsky and the others began to build
> a real following. The issues with the choice of name change over the years,
> as you say. I prefer" CHAT," but sometimes I use "Cultural Psychology" and
> sometimes I use "Activity Theory" depending on the context.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!Mih3wA!TlyHZFzEZ7SUE8GqN8__jv7a2SAk9Q_jiqAbrNCH5Bf1I-_gLIHGg1AbVtGJm26SqOHBwA*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239268522&sdata=s6REk*2BjVd*2Btd*2BH4FD*2FsS8hm1G6*2B*2FmMW*2FXfk4Vok6eNM*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LhYAqXW_A$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!Mih3wA!TlyHZFzEZ7SUE8GqN8__jv7a2SAk9Q_jiqAbrNCH5Bf1I-_gLIHGg1AbVtGJm26T9d8i0w*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239268522&sdata=VSo7NWNg3ZIpG7YMMUA6Ch*2BLEaFsqH*2FT1*2FuHN0t7Zlc*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LiAFa1TEg$>
>
> On 16/05/2020 4:18 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote:
>
> Andy, et al,
>
>
>
> I sort of came to this a little late in the thread, but I can offer that
> Vera John-Steiner didn't mind "sociocultural" to describe Vygotskian
> theory, but as I learn more about the word (thank you Mike), I can see how
> once a word is utilized with intent of derision, it's hard for the
> association to be broken.
>
>
>
> I think it's that way with words all the time coming and going out of
> favor, or meanings shifting, like the game of telephone, but across
> generations and cultures.
>
>
>
> Might I contribute to the discussion by asking whether the use of
> "sociocultural" was also a means of making the theories more available in
> the West (at least in the US). It seems there was redscare (you are welcome
> read the double entendre: "red scare" or "reds care", as you like)
> prevalent, and wouldn't it be useful to remove the Marxist "brand" to
> access the actual theories on child development? In other words, to
> depoliticize the science?
>
>
>
> I had been a proponent of the use of the word, but as time passes, I can
> see its problems.
>
>
>
> For me, I had preferred the word because historical was always a given for
> me. In concern of the here and now, the real difficulty I had thought was
> understanding the social- how interactions between the child and the
> caretaker/teacher/knowledgeable peer and the -cultural, how the culture
> impacts thought, those things are more of the micro level, but also
> sociocultural, how the two also can interact and influence one another and
> that combined bears its own signature on the mind and its development.  As
> far as History (capital H) that is sort of difficult to measure when we are
> talking about child development as there is very little history that a
> child has, unless we are talking about genetics, I suppose.
>
>
>
> Now? I'm fairly agnostic about the term. I respect and am enriched by the
> discourse in which we now we find ourselves immersed about it so thanks to
> all for this.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
> Annalisa
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Andy Blunden
> <andyb@marxists.org> <andyb@marxists.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2020 7:24 PM
> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ?
>
>
>
> *  [EXTERNAL]*
>
> In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike if I have
> garbled the long and complex story he told. I have done my best.
>
> Jim Wertsch said:
>
> Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of this, but I
> consciously started to use this in order to bring in cultural anthropology
> and also to avoid the unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches
> that I was building from.  I believe I started highlighting it in my 1985
> book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of the subtitle of my book Voices
> of the Mind.  It is not a term used by Soviet scholars when talking about
> the Vygotsky tradition.  Instead, the terms there were “socio-historical”
> or “cultural-historical.”
>
> Mike Cole told me:
>
> In addition to what has been said on line ... initially, the term
> "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by the opponents of Vygotsky's
> ideas in the Soviet bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian
> followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to Vygotsky came to a head,
> apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets
> prevented Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had been on a
> sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet Union, and was angry about what
> he saw, was at the congress too and went from there to a conference in
> Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing that Vygotskyists
> had ignored the needs, etc., of the "global South" and they used the term
> "sociocultural" for their approach, meaning something like
> Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and henceforth adopted
> to term, meaning to distinguish himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT
> emerged as a term a little later in an effort to unite the followers of the
> various brands of "Activity Theory" with those who did not embrace the
> Activity Theory of Vygotsky's Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky.
> CHAT includes the H for History, because in all the various terms being
> used at that time, there was no attention to the important place of History
> in theory, and it was Mike who insisted on its inclusion.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUv1JKsaYg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239278520&sdata=FLANmOnaPEFF5oIeWQ5kCKbqYbe6iFAclNQm1fOZYR8*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LgPjvA5UA$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUuwMTbXLQ*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239278520&sdata=HMid9x1N44GOmAuhlJK8qxH5bUQrMS*2F*2B4Vk1lD1SWuc*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LhkQDj2Xg$>
>
> On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote:
>
> I should have reported progress with my question.
>
> Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped me and between
> these two I have a very rich history of the usage of this term and the
> various nuances it acquired and shed, and Mike has put the article Martin
> referred to on his academia.edu
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://academia.edu__;!!Mih3wA!QwnjuGWv1M4ZX6kMNV7A1nO46fLjKXBSeMFcdiKYZQb3gv2FV78Tq_DhJK9vM5JRfqixgg$>
> page for us all to read.
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb_zokpkpg$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.academia.edu*2F43037735*2FSociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__*3B!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGr6Y2oI9g*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239288506&sdata=XcvnRhgInU9s5VskjKNzt*2FcJaBfZ5*2B3OCtM1FUPRlLo*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4Lh4wNA_pg$>
>
> As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of wisdom. Thank you.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGqUcVpkyg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239288506&sdata=xcS1SSFemLn7JM*2FyTZ64EHDFjeZKagJeSSeS5lFClMg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LhuZTJgUA$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGoS67wBRQ*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239298499&sdata=QmqD5a3I*2Fn5TxM*2FgIwmos*2FoVrYwVynB*2FGH*2BygmbXmz4*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LhFRqOAbQ$>
>
> On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote:
>
> Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link. The way I see
> this issue is that Vygotskian work attempts to understand human activity
> multi-dimensionally (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what
> the emergence of various parochial disciplines have pulled apart for
> analysis of the separate dimensions).  The different terms that Veresov
> points out as contending are simply foregrounding those sets of components
> that are most salient to the particular analyst at that moment.  To those
> we might add other elements that Vygotsky was interested in such as
> consciousness and language and experience and mediation (and even economics
> and human knowledge and education lurk in the background, as well as human
> neurodiversity as well as materialities of the experienced world).  That is
> the wonder of Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the
> components more than others and he was acting nominally as a
> psychologist--yet his approach allows the integration of all these
> components.
>
>
>
> I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending on what I am
> talking about, and I see activity as the overarching term--though this does
> not necessarily mean triangles all the time.  Rather activity is humans in
> motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external resources in situations.
>
>
>
> While I would like some stability in terms, right now our different
> concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And I am not yet comfortable in
> being terminally enlisted into another scholar's transient saliencies.
>
>
>
> BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at reintegrating the social
> sciences in the pragmatist project which has at times been in communication
> with the activity theory project (see my paper "Practically Human").  This
> project also never settled on a coherent set of terms and stable concepts.
>
>
>
> Chuck
>
> ----
>
> די פאַרייניקטע שטאַטן איז אַ פאָלק פון ימאַגראַנץ
>
> الولايات المتحدة هي أمة من المهاجرين
>
> Los Estados Unidos es una nación de inmigrantes.
>
> The U.S. is a nation of immigrants.
>
> History will judge.
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb9kUKpvTg$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fbazerman.education.ucsb.edu*2F__*3B!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoSDGY6tLw*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239298499&sdata=YYotBz*2FLx9lrpHnuzmdH0tmWFHIbSxu50td95dTknno*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4Lhb42BulQ$>
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb84gPbYNA$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.researchgate.net*2Fprofile*2FCharles_Bazerman__*3B!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoSePA_SrQ*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239298499&sdata=sxD*2BC5O6yW2fjqB5lQJRoQiNdifrOrKtn3My7OYmvkM*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LisSOQQ7g$>
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb8YyfMWtw$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2F*2Fwww.isawr.org__*3B!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoRwwTwk4Q*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239308499&sdata=ty3wyjZC5dcftcE*2F5iKUw9CJMG68NNZR2WbJ2ttvMUU*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LgkchwEcw$>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Interesting question (and follow-ups) here.  Thanks, Andy.
>
>
>
> While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief, 2-minute excerpt adds any
> value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb9F2jS-Hg$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.youtube.com*2Fwatch*3Fv*3DsT4uktowa-M__*3B!!Mih3wA!WLyceskZQL4AGQL-pVuwd-RH-yfvzQvsIVerMU367Nw8BZjwVLHdZ94SZfyfIX_sfjyW7w*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239308499&sdata=6UFlX9lSu4veWnKkWZzz5xkeNmlBpBA4ZVtO9I*2FQZpE*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LiijCWx3g$> "Pros
> and Cons of (terminological) Diversity"
>
>
>
> As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main point, but I'm not so
> sure the cons outweigh the pros here.
>
>
>
> But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus was formed -- could
> Vygotsky's theory (and methodology), in fact, be definitively defined?  If
> so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the constraints?
>
> I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe even stale, but I'm
> more outsider than insider and don't really know.
>
>
>
> Thank you for any insight.
>
>
>
> Anthony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net> wrote:
>
> I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier than Jim Wertsch’s, Andy.
>
>
>
> Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in the introduction to this
> book he, along with Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in their
> view it’s the best term:
>
>
>
> Wertsch, J. V., del Río, P., & Alvarez, A. (Eds.). (1995). *Sociocultural
> studies of mind.* Cambridge University Press.
>
>
>
>
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went into the mix. Indeed, the
> term seems to have migrated from Spanish to English and the word
> "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it seems that Jim Wertsch is
> the fellow who triggered the explosion in "sociocultural psychology" with "Voices
> of the mind : a sociocultural approach to mediated action
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.worldcat.org*2Ftitle*2Fvoices-of-the-mind-a-sociocultural-approach-to-mediated-action*2Foclc*2F797855062*26referer*3Dbrief_results__*3B!!Mih3wA!WsWX2sD5ZfUnBEp3uLEVG7T0NliMnbPpuJl6VOoxtiFfKP5msJWjbZPFaCQ6jDWDMZtFSg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239318487&sdata=RyYC7QwYVjtVmNNOElr0tESBV*2F5ODtp7cefdZ073l*2Fk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LiHcikE5g$>"
> published by Harvard University Press in 1991.
>
> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely associated with "context
> dependence," Wertsch's reference to "mediated action" in the title of this
> book makes it clear that for him "context" referred to the signs and
> artefacts mediating action.
>
> Thanks again to all
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!Mih3wA!WsWX2sD5ZfUnBEp3uLEVG7T0NliMnbPpuJl6VOoxtiFfKP5msJWjbZPFaCQ6jDWcr53a1g*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239318487&sdata=f*2BBENaDe*2B01ZtIXe1URyQuTqvsZ6p3Xj5G9IJG4yicY*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LiFIOsgIw$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!Mih3wA!WsWX2sD5ZfUnBEp3uLEVG7T0NliMnbPpuJl6VOoxtiFfKP5msJWjbZPFaCQ6jDW3ivveVA*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239328484&sdata=ef516eOfirI7wrTLZ7jOrE5Q9Kk7z*2FJIutau*2BAVLiw0*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LhgkgXJSA$>
>
> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote:
>
> Andy--
>
>
>
> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself.
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb-H_mKR1w$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fbooks.google.com*2Fngrams__*3B!!Mih3wA!Wt7qmS7sdvLo3anWG71NQFUJMvyFBqEy-mStjfAI_HEUpY8D8dQt5zHkl12Ld90MDkv2Mw*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239328484&sdata=*2FUOgbPpqMQ*2FTsbUl7v8mRG6Kgtvv8aOMRuLTmtsDE5c*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LjDYUhIBw$>
>
> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural psychology". If you set the
> years you'll get better granularity in the document search.
>
> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some dates in blue--when you click
> on them, you should get a list of all the books used in the search.
>
>
>
> dk
>
>
>
>
>
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Sangmyung University
>
>
>
> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
>
> Outlines, Spring 2020
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb_od1MviQ$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Ftidsskrift.dk*2Foutlines*2Farticle*2Fview*2F116238*2F167607__*3B!!Mih3wA!Wt7qmS7sdvLo3anWG71NQFUJMvyFBqEy-mStjfAI_HEUpY8D8dQt5zHkl12Ld92Vl0flPg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239328484&sdata=WVLG32RAUDNfblAr7J24arQ7irK0b*2F5e9RQCsOjvQzk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LgqnD3y5g$>
>
>
>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume
> One: Foundations of Pedology*"
>
>  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb-i3ZLWsg$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.springer.com*2Fgp*2Fbook*2F9789811505270__*3B!!Mih3wA!Wt7qmS7sdvLo3anWG71NQFUJMvyFBqEy-mStjfAI_HEUpY8D8dQt5zHkl12Ld92EeQenpA*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239338478&sdata=Xvh4gDjnU6LBHc*2Fy899diTP*2B3ghjtUkukR5XMXSC0*2Bk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LgkWxCxmA$>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net> wrote:
>
> The earliest use of the term ‘sociocultural’ I’ve been able to find in
> English is this:
>
>
>
> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio Diaz-Guerrero
>
>
>
> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press
>
>
>
> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists whose publications in Spanish use
> the term ‘sociocultural’ frequently.
>
>
>
> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is available in Google books,
> and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but titled The psychological study
> of the Mexican.
>
>
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> That graph from Google shows that usage of the term took off in 1988. How
> do we find out who wrote what in 1988?
>
> And Google also tell us that "Sociocultural theory grew from the work of
> seminal psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who believed that parents, caregivers,
> peers, and the culture at large were responsible for developing
> higher-order functions. According to Vygotsky, learning has its basis in
> interacting with other people," together with a reference. So that is nice.
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!Mih3wA!XAtiPQXEOK3tz8RHCURqNz0psvv8Js3PxWmYUmHtZyY5j_IK-RqcFDVph7-NJ5i1rCBdtQ*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239338478&sdata=qBSVoWIFYYX4P80*2BAGmetGqnFMmaauWgsqlbYxCFCBk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LgyfOHa3A$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!Mih3wA!XAtiPQXEOK3tz8RHCURqNz0psvv8Js3PxWmYUmHtZyY5j_IK-RqcFDVph7-NJ5gDytDZfw*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239348475&sdata=SSj*2Fb*2FvjoI*2BCcc6qflhVwBGnUSdOi6u*2FNHu8LONom3w*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4Lhr4ir5Mw$>
>
> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote:
>
> Andy:
>
>
>
> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably thought of doing this too, but
> here's what I got.
>
>
>
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb8ltXXQOA$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fbooks.google.com*2Fngrams*2Finteractive_chart*3Fcontent*3Dsociocultural*psychology*26year_start*3D1800*26year_end*3D2008*26corpus*3D15*26smoothing*3D3*26share*3D*26direct_url*3Dt1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__*3BKyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!T9TXqTQDd-8tvv5PfuxbPkx6Drdw0VlIrRNfcypZApQv2jnziHRkeAppccOVAZEmjetMCg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239348475&sdata=FhIdfQLJp4oYEid9OATTsoYOhr2DgQ3cTpuhbe7osMw*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSoqKioqJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LgKKkyp5g$>"
> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0
> frameborder=0 scrolling=no
>
>
>
> So it all starts around 1960. At first I thought this probably referred to
> the Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and Language", but when I looked the only
> books that used the term were sports psychology books. The big uptick after
> 1992 is Vygotsky though.
>
>
>
> Of course, this is all English only. I am sure you will find very
> different results in German, where "cultural historical psychology" is the
> trend identified with Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism generally.
>
>
>
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Sangmyung University
>
>
>
> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
>
> Outlines, Spring 2020
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb_od1MviQ$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Ftidsskrift.dk*2Foutlines*2Farticle*2Fview*2F116238*2F167607__*3B!!Mih3wA!T9TXqTQDd-8tvv5PfuxbPkx6Drdw0VlIrRNfcypZApQv2jnziHRkeAppccOVAZFjmWjmLg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239358467&sdata=xw1qyWhEol8GT8XnCRJSASfKSi7aPLhlr0ckrtcYVdQ*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4Lgk8ewiWw$>
>
>
>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume
> One: Foundations of Pedology*"
>
>  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb-i3ZLWsg$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.springer.com*2Fgp*2Fbook*2F9789811505270__*3B!!Mih3wA!T9TXqTQDd-8tvv5PfuxbPkx6Drdw0VlIrRNfcypZApQv2jnziHRkeAppccOVAZGMmypSYw*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239358467&sdata=QnWXAvHKoTX0CtKN1eU3AJRBcx9s9oc1TTv4FYB7*2FZc*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LiyK3zyUQ$>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
> Can anyone tell me when and with whom the term "sociocultural psychology"
> originated?
>
> Andy
>
> --
> ------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!Mih3wA!WBIr3_zzidcxaloVcp2qUX4U6WR3f7enQ2z2gvamcdo3Ihy82L4ZkR-PgfCDASisbYxsxw*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239368456&sdata=i6vvnyWQ*2FWJt3azf9lTxyhKw8pRiZj9NGtNk*2BXVYsH0*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LjrP78fag$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!Mih3wA!WBIr3_zzidcxaloVcp2qUX4U6WR3f7enQ2z2gvamcdo3Ihy82L4ZkR-PgfCDASiXKr5OJw*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C6f6f52b10ee64d7bfdbd08d7f9d8676f*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637252580239368456&sdata=10eyz8KMqDUm*2FgWxXkhvGvNLmUNY6*2F4x5vTWsmjIdNw*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!R9drsiySNEmllp604wKW_RghL8N-6pKyp0upwIQ08rRyyX4_xUCbMKYtkRxP4LiTrxjvMg$>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 

"How does newness come into the world?  How is it born?  Of what fusions,
translations, conjoinings is it made?" Salman Rushdie
---------------------------------------------------
Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VBS_lEU3jjnZi3bagRnyPTcZs1YQLthrCBBPDaVbKpdMIroKZPLQ6tc9myDelb-AlbOMDw$ 
Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu.
Narrative history of LCHC:  lchcautobio.ucsd.edu.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200521/c3735c23/attachment.html