[Xmca-l] Re: "sociocultural psychology" ?
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Thu May 14 18:24:01 PDT 2020
In response to requests, I will elaborate. Apologies to Mike
if I have garbled the long and complex story he told. I have
done my best.
Jim Wertsch said:
Various people undoubtedly have various accounts of
this, but I consciously started to use this in order to
bring in cultural anthropology and also to avoid the
unexamined social evolutionism in some approaches that I
was building from. I believe I started highlighting it
in my 1985 book on Vygotsky, and by 1991 it was part of
the subtitle of my book Voices of the Mind. It is not a
term used by Soviet scholars when talking about the
Vygotsky tradition. Instead, the terms there were
“socio-historical” or “cultural-historical.”
Mike Cole told me:
In addition to what has been said on line ... initially,
the term "sociocultural" was used as a term of abuse by
the opponents of Vygotsky's ideas in the Soviet
bureaucracy, so it was not a term which his Russian
followers ever embraced. The Soviet hostility to
Vygotsky came to a head, apparently, in 1986 when ISCRAT
had a conference in Berlin and the Soviets prevented
Russian delegates form attending. Jim Wertsch, who had
been on a sabbatical year, and had been in the Soviet
Union, and was angry about what he saw, was at the
congress too and went from there to a conference in
Spain where a group of Spanish Vygotskyists were arguing
that Vygotskyists had ignored the needs, etc., of the
"global South" and they used the term "sociocultural"
for their approach, meaning something like
Vygotsky+postcolonialism. Wertsch embraced this idea and
henceforth adopted to term, meaning to distinguish
himself from the Soviet-influence. CHAT emerged as a
term a little later in an effort to unite the followers
of the various brands of "Activity Theory" with those
who did not embrace the Activity Theory of Vygotsky's
Russian followers and stuck with Vygotsky. CHAT includes
the H for History, because in all the various terms
being used at that time, there was no attention to the
important place of History in theory, and it was Mike
who insisted on its inclusion.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Hegel for Social Movements <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUv1JKsaYg$ >
Home Page <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUuwMTbXLQ$ >
On 14/05/2020 11:55 am, Andy Blunden wrote:
>
> I should have reported progress with my question.
>
> Jim Wertsch responded to me on email and Mike Cole Skyped
> me and between these two I have a very rich history of the
> usage of this term and the various nuances it acquired and
> shed, and Mike has put the article Martin referred to on
> his academia.edu page for us all to read.
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUsXHzGyPw$
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/43037735/Sociocul_tural_studies_of_rnind_Edited_by__;!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGr6Y2oI9g$>
>
> As ever, XMCA has proved to be a bottomless mine of
> wisdom. Thank you.
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGqUcVpkyg$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!R2PQRv7SmtSpShBHHVPDEjIG1-ol_VEYh22ETbbkrOTaZbmV95HyZtHr1MBppGoS67wBRQ$>
>
> On 14/05/2020 1:38 am, Charles Bazerman wrote:
>> Thank you Anthony for the interesting question and link.
>> The way I see this issue is that Vygotskian work
>> attempts to understand human activity multi-dimensionally
>> (or even better holistically, trying to reunite what the
>> emergence of various parochial disciplines have
>> pulled apart for analysis of the separate dimensions).
>> The different terms that Veresov points out as contending
>> are simply foregrounding those sets of components that
>> are most salient to the particular analyst at that
>> moment. To those we might add other elements that
>> Vygotsky was interested in such as consciousness and
>> language and experience and mediation (and even economics
>> and human knowledge and education lurk in the background,
>> as well as human neurodiversity as well as materialities
>> of the experienced world). That is the wonder of
>> Vygotsky, even though he may have developed some of the
>> components more than others and he was acting nominally
>> as a psychologist--yet his approach allows the
>> integration of all these components.
>>
>> I therefore use different conjunctions of terms depending
>> on what I am talking about, and I see activity as the
>> overarching term--though this does not necessarily mean
>> triangles all the time. Rather activity is humans in
>> motion, mobilizing multiple internal and external
>> resources in situations.
>>
>> While I would like some stability in terms, right now our
>> different concerns and issues leave salience mutable. And
>> I am not yet comfortable in being terminally enlisted
>> into another scholar's transient saliencies.
>>
>> BTW, I see another related, parallel attempt at
>> reintegrating the social sciences in the pragmatist
>> project which has at times been in communication with the
>> activity theory project (see my paper "Practically
>> Human"). This project also never settled on a coherent
>> set of terms and stable concepts.
>>
>> Chuck
>> ----
>> די פאַרייניקטע שטאַטן איז אַ פאָלק פון ימאַגראַנץ
>> الولايات المتحدة هي أمة من المهاجرين
>> Los Estados Unidos es una nación de inmigrantes.
>> The U.S. is a nation of immigrants.
>> History will judge.
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUvjsFKQVA$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bazerman.education.ucsb.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoSDGY6tLw$>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUsrvadSgQ$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Bazerman__;!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoSePA_SrQ$>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUtpoplMdg$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.isawr.org__;!!Mih3wA!UhKa4f0rCaFbK573eepABBebep9QDP87JqQVUnd9uIfxETz6hRUnOR46PYaTgoRwwTwk4Q$>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:08 AM Anthony Barra
>> <anthonymbarra@gmail.com
>> <mailto:anthonymbarra@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Interesting question (and follow-ups) here. Thanks,
>> Andy.
>>
>> While not 100% related, I wonder if this brief,
>> 2-minute excerpt adds any value:
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUt_zfvNbg$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4uktowa-M__;!!Mih3wA!WLyceskZQL4AGQL-pVuwd-RH-yfvzQvsIVerMU367Nw8BZjwVLHdZ94SZfyfIX_sfjyW7w$> "Pros
>> and Cons of (terminological) Diversity"
>>
>> As a non-expert, I can empathize with Nikolai's main
>> point, but I'm not so sure the cons outweigh the pros
>> here.
>>
>> But what WOULD happen if a terminological consensus
>> was formed -- could Vygotsky's theory (and
>> methodology), in fact, be definitively defined? If
>> so, would the benefits of doing so outweigh the
>> constraints?
>> I'm guessing this is an old conversation, and maybe
>> even stale, but I'm more outsider than insider and
>> don't really know.
>>
>> Thank you for any insight.
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM Martin Packer
>> <mpacker@cantab.net <mailto:mpacker@cantab.net>> wrote:
>>
>> I had assumed you were looking for uses earlier
>> than Jim Wertsch’s, Andy.
>>
>> Jim used the term in titles in 1989 too. And in
>> the introduction to this book he, along with
>> Pablo del Rio and Amelia Alvarez, explain why in
>> their view it’s the best term:
>>
>> Wertsch, J. V., del Río, P., & Alvarez, A.
>> (Eds.). (1995). /Sociocultural studies of mind./
>> Cambridge University Press.
>>
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 12, 2020, at 11:13 PM, Andy Blunden
>>> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks to everyone for their help. It all went
>>> into the mix. Indeed, the term seems to have
>>> migrated from Spanish to English and the word
>>> "sociocultural" became popular in 1990, and it
>>> seems that Jim Wertsch is the fellow who
>>> triggered the explosion in "sociocultural
>>> psychology" with "Voices of the mind : a
>>> sociocultural approach to mediated action
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.worldcat.org/title/voices-of-the-mind-a-sociocultural-approach-to-mediated-action/oclc/797855062&referer=brief_results__;!!Mih3wA!WsWX2sD5ZfUnBEp3uLEVG7T0NliMnbPpuJl6VOoxtiFfKP5msJWjbZPFaCQ6jDWDMZtFSg$>"
>>> published by Harvard University Press in 1991.
>>>
>>> Although "sociocultural" seems to be most widely
>>> associated with "context dependence," Wertsch's
>>> reference to "mediated action" in the title of
>>> this book makes it clear that for him "context"
>>> referred to the signs and artefacts mediating
>>> action.
>>>
>>> Thanks again to all
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!WsWX2sD5ZfUnBEp3uLEVG7T0NliMnbPpuJl6VOoxtiFfKP5msJWjbZPFaCQ6jDWcr53a1g$>
>>> Home Page
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!WsWX2sD5ZfUnBEp3uLEVG7T0NliMnbPpuJl6VOoxtiFfKP5msJWjbZPFaCQ6jDW3ivveVA$>
>>>
>>> On 13/05/2020 12:26 pm, David Kellogg wrote:
>>>> Andy--
>>>>
>>>> Go to to the Google N-gram site itself.
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUu3sh1qTA$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams__;!!Mih3wA!Wt7qmS7sdvLo3anWG71NQFUJMvyFBqEy-mStjfAI_HEUpY8D8dQt5zHkl12Ld90MDkv2Mw$>
>>>> Then do your own n-gram for "sociocultural
>>>> psychology". If you set the years you'll get
>>>> better granularity in the document search.
>>>> On the bottom of the n-gram, there are some
>>>> dates in blue--when you click on them, you
>>>> should get a list of all the books used in the
>>>> search.
>>>>
>>>> dk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David Kellogg
>>>> Sangmyung University
>>>>
>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A
>>>> manual and a manifesto.
>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUuqR2EJtg$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!Wt7qmS7sdvLo3anWG71NQFUJMvyFBqEy-mStjfAI_HEUpY8D8dQt5zHkl12Ld92Vl0flPg$>
>>>>
>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S.
>>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One:
>>>> Foundations of Pedology/"
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUtI9CbIiw$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Wt7qmS7sdvLo3anWG71NQFUJMvyFBqEy-mStjfAI_HEUpY8D8dQt5zHkl12Ld92EeQenpA$>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Martin Packer
>>>> <mpacker@cantab.net
>>>> <mailto:mpacker@cantab.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The earliest use of the term
>>>> ‘sociocultural’ I’ve been able to find in
>>>> English is this:
>>>>
>>>> A sociocultural psychology, by Rogelio
>>>> Diaz-Guerrero
>>>>
>>>> In "Chicano psychology", 1977 - Academic Press
>>>>
>>>> Diaz-Guerrero was Mexican psychologists
>>>> whose publications in Spanish use the term
>>>> ‘sociocultural’ frequently.
>>>>
>>>> The 2nd edition of Chicano Psychology is
>>>> available in Google books,
>>>> and Diaz-Guerrero has a chapter in it, but
>>>> titled The psychological study of the Mexican.
>>>>
>>>> Martin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 12, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Andy Blunden
>>>>> <andyb@marxists.org
>>>>> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> That graph from Google shows that usage of
>>>>> the term took off in 1988. How do we find
>>>>> out who wrote what in 1988?
>>>>>
>>>>> And Google also tell us that
>>>>> "Socioculturaltheory grew from the work of
>>>>> seminalpsychologistLev Vygotsky, who
>>>>> believed that parents, caregivers, peers,
>>>>> and the culture at large were responsible
>>>>> for developing higher-order functions.
>>>>> According to Vygotsky, learning has its
>>>>> basis in interacting with other people,"
>>>>> together with a reference. So that is nice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!XAtiPQXEOK3tz8RHCURqNz0psvv8Js3PxWmYUmHtZyY5j_IK-RqcFDVph7-NJ5i1rCBdtQ$>
>>>>> Home Page
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!XAtiPQXEOK3tz8RHCURqNz0psvv8Js3PxWmYUmHtZyY5j_IK-RqcFDVph7-NJ5gDytDZfw$>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 13/05/2020 11:30 am, David Kellogg wrote:
>>>>>> Andy:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did a Google N-gram on it. You probably
>>>>>> thought of doing this too, but here's
>>>>>> what I got.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUtjeYrGug$
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/ngrams/interactive_chart?content=sociocultural*psychology&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1*3B*2Csociocultural*20psychology*3B*2Cc0__;KyUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!T9TXqTQDd-8tvv5PfuxbPkx6Drdw0VlIrRNfcypZApQv2jnziHRkeAppccOVAZEmjetMCg$>"
>>>>>> width=900 height=500 marginwidth=0
>>>>>> marginheight=0 hspace=0 vspace=0
>>>>>> frameborder=0 scrolling=no
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So it all starts around 1960. At first I
>>>>>> thought this probably referred to the
>>>>>> Hanfmann and Vakar "Thought and
>>>>>> Language", but when I looked the only
>>>>>> books that used the term were sports
>>>>>> psychology books. The big uptick after
>>>>>> 1992 is Vygotsky though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, this is all English only. I am
>>>>>> sure you will find very different results
>>>>>> in German, where "cultural historical
>>>>>> psychology" is the trend identified with
>>>>>> Dilthey, Spranger, and neo-Kantianism
>>>>>> generally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Kellogg
>>>>>> Sangmyung University
>>>>>>
>>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam:
>>>>>> A manual and a manifesto.
>>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020
>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUuqR2EJtg$
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!T9TXqTQDd-8tvv5PfuxbPkx6Drdw0VlIrRNfcypZApQv2jnziHRkeAppccOVAZFjmWjmLg$>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov:
>>>>>> /L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works/
>>>>>> /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/"
>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RTGbCZZ1yCkr4jCqSe4SB3e7KrPD-Ptq8Hhz2_7jDT2OtWnRBco2e9D6yKW2qUtI9CbIiw$
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T9TXqTQDd-8tvv5PfuxbPkx6Drdw0VlIrRNfcypZApQv2jnziHRkeAppccOVAZGMmypSYw$>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:43 PM Andy
>>>>>> Blunden <andyb@marxists.org
>>>>>> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can anyone tell me when and with whom
>>>>>> the term "sociocultural psychology"
>>>>>> originated?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!WBIr3_zzidcxaloVcp2qUX4U6WR3f7enQ2z2gvamcdo3Ihy82L4ZkR-PgfCDASisbYxsxw$>
>>>>>> Home Page
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!WBIr3_zzidcxaloVcp2qUX4U6WR3f7enQ2z2gvamcdo3Ihy82L4ZkR-PgfCDASiXKr5OJw$>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
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