[Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis

Sun Jun 7 13:20:13 PDT 2020

Anthony,

I'm not up on my recent history so I looked up "The Ferguson Effect" and found this link:

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_effect__;!!Mih3wA!Wrb5nztyxIWQJePOViDxdlXyf-Nz0lKCXr-Sq01UtuLKHM6CwQ-PEhrbx6gDrWe0Acj0DQ$ 

Which states that distrust of police has caused increase in crime, that "the criminal element is feeling empowered." I'm having a hard time with that phrase and its meaning, which was coined by the Dotson, St. Louis police chief, by the way.

Why on earth would the police get to name the scenario for which they are the author and sole perpetrators of this particular form social injustice? That is like the rapist getting to decide what are the facts and consequences of his act of rape upon the victim. That makes no sense at all.

If you want to really take it "to heart," why would the police do this to themselves? If the consequence of their actions was to "privilege" the "criminal element"? Should I say "poor, poor police officers!" ?? Intelligent leadership would agree that police reform is valid and that the police have to work HARDER to instill trust in their own communities. It's on them to reject bad cop behavior and to punish the "bad apples" who sully the officers who do actually provide service to their communities.

(Also: Note the dehumanizing of the phrase "criminal element." Why not just say "criminals feel empowered." But it doesn't matter... Most criminals feel empowered, regardless of AA profiling. Or was he including "white collar criminal elements" too?)

I'm not sure you are being appropriate at all. Please do not take my words and twist them, thank you.

I disagree with you entirely in many ways, there isn't a need to balance head with heart, because that is the entire Cartesian fallacy, that head and heart are separated. It's not about balance, it's about appropriateness.

What we need is holistic awareness of doing what has to be done in the here and now.

Please wake up. What we are experiencing is what we have witnessed in "other countries" with authoritarian leaders: a strengthening of police for surveillance, monitoring, and control of the citizenry. When you look at the video of George Floyd or Eric Garner, or others being shot in the back, etc. you should instead think, "THAT is me, unless I do something about it."

Do you want to live in a world where your neck has a police officer's knee upon it? Because that is what is coming for you but only unless you decide to do something about it.

Here is something that is appropriate:

"They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Niemöller backed Hitler at first, remember.  His "criminal element" was that he thought he was better than the others, he thought he was protected. He thought he was privileged. That he would never be taken away.

What kind of world do you want anyway?

What are you willing to do for change?

What is *your* imagination on that?

Have you any ideas at all?

Or are we just chatting as something to pass time while in shelter?

How do you plan to take action.

Meaningful action.

Kind regards,

Annalisa

________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 1:33 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis

  [EXTERNAL]

Thank you, Annalisa.  I think what you say here about the real costs of 'waiting around for data' is quite beautiful:
"I feel that this is a perhaps unintended reaction that has a consequence to prolong the lack of care our communities need. That is, to leisurely sit and debate about causes while the injured bleed to death.

Maybe it's not appropriate to get "academic" about this right now. Maybe there is an emotional bypass going on.

There's something very Cartesian about trying to solve a problem into parts as if doing so will provide clarity of cause. The worth of African American lives is not a mathematical proof. I feel this numbers talk dehumanizes people.

At the same time, I'm not attempting to censor anyone. We need to talk. It is good."

Talk is good, and as far as I'm currently aware, the so-called "Ferguson Effect" has turned out to be real. Unfortunately and terribly so, with its own real costs.

So, as I believe you implied, there is indeed a balance to strike between the proverbial heart and head.

Anthony

On Sunday, June 7, 2020, Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu<mailto:annalisa@unm.edu>> wrote:
Hello fellow gardeners of Us and Them,

I have to agree with Michael, without meaning to put words in his mouth, but I feel his meaning is, getting into arguments about statistics, when it is well known there is injustice of profiling African American men and that there are too many being murdered by police for no reason, doesn't mean that murder of other colors is any less unsavory. Murder is murder, corruption is corruption, injustice is injustice.

Let's not get into suffering contests that go no where, "My suffering is worse than yours," or "their suffering is worse than ours". That really doesn't speak to the issue that clearly quacks like a duck. Or should we argue whether it is a duck or not?

Another problem I'm having in this reading to this discussion (not just on this list), is to debate about the cause. Clearly the issue of any sort of injustice doesn't have a neat and clean cause-and-effect rhythm. Oh, if only we can change the cause we can alter its effects. But when something happened (or didn't happen as the case may be) ~250+ years ago, it's hard to time travel and change the history. Yes, we should understand it.

Yet, when someone is bleeding from a gunshot wound, does it help at that moment to ask "Who pulled the trigger?"

I feel that this is a perhaps unintended reaction that has a consequence to prolong the lack of care our communities need. That is, to leisurely sit and debate about causes while the injured bleed to death.

Maybe it's not appropriate to get "academic" about this right now. Maybe there is an emotional bypass going on.

There's something very Cartesian about trying to solve a problem into parts as if doing so will provide clarity of cause. The worth of African American lives is not a mathematical proof. I feel this numbers talk dehumanizes people.

At the same time, I'm not attempting to censor anyone. We need to talk. It is good.

I suppose I'm trying to raise awareness that there is something difficult about all this when we have to revisit slavery as cause to what is happening now. Perhaps it is about appropriateness. I'm not sure.

Alica Garza appeared on Meet the Press today with appeals to defund the police. The Guardian quotes her as saying:

"When we talk about defunding the police, what we’re saying is invest in the resources that our communities need,” she said. “So much of policing right now is generated and directed towards quality of life issues ... But what we do need is increased funding for housing, we need increased funding for education, we need increased funding for the quality of life of communities who are over-policed and over-surveilled.

“... Black Lives Matter is not just a radical idea … everyone can agree that we don’t have the things that we need to live well, and that we are using policing and law enforcement in a way that far exceeds its utility.”

In all honesty, I don't like wrangling the name "Black Lives Matter" because I come from a place where all lives matter, including animals and trees, and the oceans and land, our entire planet. Until we see that "That is me" everywhere we look, we will always remain disconnected from others and our environment and continue to "otherfy" into us and them. I don't think Black Lives Matter is a radical idea, because I've always thought that they matter. So I presume the audience to whom this speaks to are those who don't think that they do.

If you do think they matter already then what should we be doing to better our society. What do you imagine is a solution? Cat got your tongue? What is an action to take?

What I like about Alicia's discourse is that she doesn't trip into the statistics rabbit hole. This is again that liberal notion that if one cites egregious statistics that's going to somehow get people riled up to act. It doesn't work. Alicia offers a pathway to a SOLUTION. She uses her speech to explain not what she IS AGAINST, but what she IS FOR.

It's about quality of life. Is it so hard to see this?

It very well may be that AA men are our canaries in the coalmine of our society, are they returning dead in the cage after being lowered down the shaft? That how the police are treating them is just a precursor of what lay ahead for us if we do nothing.

I'm on board with supporting anti-surveillance, and training for police to set in stone they are SERVING their communities not monitoring communities.

I also feel sad that in the way people who might want to express their disdain for looting end up falling into suffering contest trap. This caused an editor in Philadelphia to resign by equating buildings to AA lives in a headline "Buildings Matter too." or something to that effect. I don't think that that is what he meant by the headline, and I feel it's wrong to cancel people out like that. It's cringe-worthy as a headline but should a person's life be destroyed like that? If he intended to mean that, it would be different, but I can't believe that he meant to intimate that meaning, when the content of the article (as I understand)  had to do with leaving a hole in Philadelphia's body, and what would happen to the health of the city from this kind of destruction?

That is the trap of the naming of this movement and why I don't like it.

I suppose there is something here that has to do with a notion about property. And it is certainly foul to equate the worth of buildings with that of a demographic of people whose forebears were treated like property.

But what is the message that says, "Because police destroy black lives, I will destroy your property" isn't that also making that kind of equation about property? I'm not trying to insinuate anyone who is against looting is making these kinds of equations, but does it mean we should be FOR looting?

I saw as well that I did not quite explain my Gone With the Wind reference. Which was to say that in my teens the notion of looting was introduced to me when I read that novel, a fictional account of the Civil War. Being shot for looting was not something I could get my head around.

I'm considering the subtexts and implied equations, and I wonder if they are coherent at all?

It's a little crazy making.

Kind regards,

Annalisa

________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>>
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 6:38 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis

  [EXTERNAL]

Black men are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police than white men. What makes this much, much worse is that most Black men are taught from very early in life the dangers they face in dealing with police and have strategies set for de-escalation. The first point you can get with a few key strokes. The second point maybe you have to live in the U.S. for.

I do not believe the Loury McWhorter argument is based on any well founded social science.

What I find difficult about this is that XMCA, whose earlier versions was one of the earliest well-functioning communities is being use to proliferate this type of information, or I would say misinformation. The list has always run with minimalist moderation but I wonder if it is possible in this day and age.

These are observations. I have no desire to argue about this with anybody.

Michael

From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> On Behalf Of Bill Kerr
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:59 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: My Hometown Minneapolis

hi Anthony,

I watched both videos.

Coleman Hughes argues that the Black Lives Matter movement is based on a half truth. True that the police treat blacks worse. Not true that they murder disproportionately more blacks than whites. The problem with the police is corruption (not being independently investigated) not disproportionate murder of black people.

Glen Loury and John McWhorter teach me the real history of American race, that things have moved on, progress has been made since Lincoln and MLKing, and the importance of identifying the real reasons of black disadvantage, arising paradoxically from the 1960s, and not that racism is the American DNA. eg. the meme that school is a white persons domain arose in part from the bussing movement which gave many blacks a terrible school experience.

There are some parallels in Australia, eg. welfare dependency which is one of the biggest if not the biggest problem for aboriginals here arose from the chain events which followed from the 1967 referendum where they were recognised at citizens for the first time. This led to equal pay which led to aboriginal workers being sacked which led to welfare dependency which led to grog which led to more black on black violence etc. This history has been written, eg. by Peter Sutton, The Politics of Suffering, but is still not widely understood.

Thank you

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:38 AM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com<mailto:anthonymbarra@gmail.com>> wrote:

I'm hearing people talk of cabin fever and itchy scratchy restlessness, and I think that is one unifying thing that almost everyone here can relate to!  What a year so far.

I promise, these two conversations are very interesting, for anyone potentially curious:

First, this one https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!Wrb5nztyxIWQJePOViDxdlXyf-Nz0lKCXr-Sq01UtuLKHM6CwQ-PEhrbx6gDrWe-3yaaDw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWQmzgiKXQ__;!!Mih3wA!XgM3_X1riF_AYwqfZ7zTT0dslCVEzwkmg1Kw-a63ReNKrqh653kZrirxQ_TR4yBatxTfPw$> featuring Glenn Loury and John McWhorter -- piggybacking on the 1619 Project link that Martin shared earlier today (thanks for sharing that)

and in my honest opinion, this is the single most down-the-middle commentary on recent events in the US, via Coleman Hughes: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!Wrb5nztyxIWQJePOViDxdlXyf-Nz0lKCXr-Sq01UtuLKHM6CwQ-PEhrbx6gDrWcMrNnXow$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/youtu.be/8C-VrsK93GE__;!!Mih3wA!XgM3_X1riF_AYwqfZ7zTT0dslCVEzwkmg1Kw-a63ReNKrqh653kZrirxQ_TR4yB6mIcWCw$>  (as least as far as I've yet encountered).  Coleman shares his perspective as a protest attendee, and also much more than that.

Somewhat of a warning: there's a fair amount of pain expressed in these videos, but not exactly conventional, as these commentaries do cut against the headwinds a fair amount.

Thank you,

Anthony

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:43 PM Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu<mailto:annalisa@unm.edu>> wrote:

To the wonderful garden of Us and Them,

I'm not sure why I wrote that, it just seemed to come out. Like the riot of expression that gobsmacked me as I saw this thread extending to 46, including mine, though I know the tapestry is still weaving us and them here and in the streets for a little while still.

To whoever said it, I don't think that it's that people don't like the color of Trump's hair, but his orange-ness, which makes it so strange for him to promote white supremacy. An black star enigma surrounded by a riddle small waving hands wrapped in a spray tan. It should be orange supremacy, shouldn't it?

I also wanted to offer, for those of us who organize peaceful protest, we must also have a bullet-proof strategy (pun intended) to counter violently-intentioned infiltrators. This strategy must have enough cheeky chutzpah to bend the myth that peaceful protesters are namby-pambies with flowers in their hair. Does this exist? Has it been designed?

I have seen people yell down a few no-nos running about by yelling in unison NO VIOLENCE! NO VIOLENCE! It worked.

NO Vi-Oh-LENCE!

Perhaps it has to do with spacing and cadence, something David might appreciate.

We learn violence, and then we must unlearn it. Violence is an act of desperation once enough people feel disrespected, if even the number is just one.

Of course my suggestion may not be the best possible, but I wonder if there is such an on-the-ground ad hoc strategy for aikido maneuvers by peaceful protesters to differentiate themselves from chaotic pretenders and the police who need them to be pretending chaotically, so they can rationalize their dear riot gear.

Now the antifa, on the other hand, have a wonderful moniker, sly and clever how it doesn't weave "fascism" into it fully, the way it is referential in function, like if I were to say, "Don't think of an elepha." They are like crouching tigers and hidden dragons, black ninjas who architect surprise. It's almost performance art. At the same time like watching a pincer move, in action with peaceful protesters, It's a beautiful think. Cornell West wrote recently in the Guardian that if the antifa were not present in Charlottesville he may have been killed. So I wondered about that coupling of forces. Is that what appears to be solidifying in the rhythms of the recent protests? What do other's think?

I can't speak to the looting, as I would never ever do it. I remember coming across the concept or looting when I was challenged by my friends in 7th grade to read all of Gone With the Wind. And that they shot and killed looters on the spot. I supposed that concept too has gone out the window. Not that I'd want to see that mind you, but it is punny.

There were curfews for a few days, but it's been lifted as of a few nights back. As I am writing this I am hearing helicopters cir
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