[Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes?

Tue Jul 28 10:18:04 PDT 2020

Hi Andy et al -
I  often start from your formula that  "Every *thing* is, of course, also a
*process*, in that every thing is in movement and change.

ergo, there needs to be time in the unit of analysis..

Seems like you also need scale, or some such term......  This is
illustrated by the powers of ten video that always flashes past
my mind's eye when this discussion comes up.

The big challenge, always, is to be able to use these concepts as lenses
through which to look at the processes of learning and development
that people pay us to do something about.

mike

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 4:28 AM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:

> Having taken a moment to think about your question, Mike, for a change, I
> think I can clarify my response.
>
> The response cannot be an either-or answer.
>
> Do we judge an actor (movement, project, person, ...) by their means or by
> their end? by the journey or by the destination? by the means (tools,
> words, ...) used or by the object aimed at, by the process or the product.
> The answer has to be *both* for the same kind of reason that we see
> activity always in terms *dual stimulation*, not just immediate and not
> just mediated, but both.
>
> Every *thing* is, of course, also a *process*, in that every thing is in
> movement and change. Every process is also a product.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGDUwdyVCg$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGDCobEkfQ$>
> On 25/07/2020 6:50 pm, Andy Blunden wrote:
>
> Oh, I see: "if you want to know the mind of a cobbler, then study the
> boots he has made."
>
> The focus on the object of activity to which Collingwood directs our
> attention, should not, I think, be seen as excluding understanding of the
> activity. He is saying: don't look inside his head, look at what he is
> *doing*, his object-oriented activity. True, there are different ways of
> making boots of the same quality, and the concept is includes *how* the
> boot is produced as well as *what* was produced,
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!TfzgjLzqkc8JVlKmicTaLZMFJ8xx0betSNkstzweksdGg317CEc4oiSiGeNIzuH12f4l8Q$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!TfzgjLzqkc8JVlKmicTaLZMFJ8xx0betSNkstzweksdGg317CEc4oiSiGeNIzuG4Wc8m2w$>
> On 25/07/2020 12:48 pm, mike cole wrote:
>
> Why restrict ourselves to observing the boot, Andy? Why not study the
> process of the boot's coming into being historically and in contemporary
> activities that bring boots
> into being? In psychology a focus on products not processes is a constant,
> justified complaint of critical scholars I have been reading.
> What am I missing?
> mike
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 2:05 AM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
>> Collingwood is great. Hard to get hold of work I think.
>>
>> And yes, *Geist *is an activity. Many writers of our day agree with that.
>>
>> andy
>> ------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Hegel for Social Movements
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!QF2Dcu6tNVtc6QgFIIOvgcPzUedUPmYqhk6DpQSkkz2IHkcFeGKyJETmpyCEKAFo2KY2Qg$>
>> Home Page
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!QF2Dcu6tNVtc6QgFIIOvgcPzUedUPmYqhk6DpQSkkz2IHkcFeGKyJETmpyCEKAHghf0mpA$>
>> On 24/07/2020 6:28 pm, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote:
>>
>> Mind, Hegel and Collingwood
>>
>> The mind seems to be not so much that which thinks as the thinking
>> itself; it is not an active thing so much  as an activity (Religion &
>> Philosophy 1916 p.100) -  if you want to know the mind of a cobbler,
>> then study the boots he has made
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Andy Blunden
>> <andyb@marxists.org> <andyb@marxists.org>
>> *Sent:* 24 July 2020 05:04
>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes?
>>
>>
>> There is nothing "crude" about Hegel's Philosophy of Spirit. It has
>> almost innumerable grades of mind between the indeterminate "feeling" which
>> might cause a new-born to cry without any kind of awareness, up to
>> political action to resolve the social problem at the root of the
>> "disturbance." All these are states of a whole body and its relation to its
>> environment. Hegel does talk about "expulsion" where are person takes
>> action - shouting, sobbing, .. - to relieve the feeling, a process which
>> can be more or less rational. But he does not have a mental state over
>> there and a body over there, or one expressing itself in the other.
>> Probably my analogy of hand-waving was inappropriate. That's obviously not
>> the same as your hair standing on end when you get a creepy feeling or the
>> stomach ache which tells you it's dinner time.
>>
>> andy
>> ------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Hegel for Social Movements
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u5bbHvFUA$>
>> Home Page
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u6pRGACdQ$>
>> On 24/07/2020 7:01 am, David Kellogg wrote:
>>
>> Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is
>> what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles
>> respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at
>> any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response.
>>
>> I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is
>> crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is
>> "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in
>> physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a
>> change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one.
>> (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's
>> waving analogy....)
>>
>> Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or
>> less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the
>> environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the
>> potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make
>> this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include
>> the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT
>> issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can,
>> though....)
>> :
>> David Kellogg
>> Sangmyung University
>>
>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
>> Outlines, Spring 2020
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj-JpLENRQ$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QLEoxL29F3RatvgkaIG1vsUhEgaWkdE-vCDs0vMv8gD5JVN33eCV8_ZTlPUZ5zPbYeeQHQ$>
>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *
>> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*"
>>  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj_wh9ODbw$ 
>>
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QLEoxL29F3RatvgkaIG1vsUhEgaWkdE-vCDs0vMv8gD5JVN33eCV8_ZTlPUZ5zOCrzEKFA$>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>>
>> No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts
>> of the whole organism. The emotion *is* the state of a whole organism,
>> in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave
>> to someone.
>>
>> andy
>> ------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Hegel for Social Movements
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!W1x0zBm8fkXksY2M64OKgpNL_TPx1e8eTQyWJEtxUBueZNW1leqHSuR9yBEWIW_pdhtxwg$>
>> Home Page
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!W1x0zBm8fkXksY2M64OKgpNL_TPx1e8eTQyWJEtxUBueZNW1leqHSuR9yBEWIW9bL-5LGQ$>
>> On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Andy--this is it!
>>
>> "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts
>> subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a
>> physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they
>> get quite another interpretation."
>>
>> The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the
>> mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps
>> that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system
>> that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion.
>>
>> (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking,
>> when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart
>> that was broken but his stomach....)
>>
>>
>> David Kellogg
>> Sangmyung University
>>
>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
>> Outlines, Spring 2020
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj-JpLENRQ$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TttD-npmriYNiq_GkGHggjRPJwdnhAwRmpOFFclfTRlXC2fTkBviD-tAkaQPh-R8158beQ$>
>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *
>> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*"
>>  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj_wh9ODbw$ 
>>
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TttD-npmriYNiq_GkGHggjRPJwdnhAwRmpOFFclfTRlXC2fTkBviD-tAkaQPh-Q7yWc-iw$>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>>
>> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402
>> as well.
>>
>> One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to
>> cite the page no. in the authoritative version of *Hegel Werke*. The
>> German word for "page" is *Seite*, so you would say "S. 401" of the *Enc*,
>> This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit,
>> on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic,
>> though in a much reduced form, not like in the *Phenomenology of Spirit*.
>>
>>
>> See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English
>> translation is here:
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj_JmsvdIQ$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!V5yS3WiqsE4SSOtcY1SJElXpnzzhFH035NnO1lZ49z3QJYH4kQO68Wccu2Y86C642xXiTQ$>
>>
>> Andy
>> ------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Hegel for Social Movements
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!V5yS3WiqsE4SSOtcY1SJElXpnzzhFH035NnO1lZ49z3QJYH4kQO68Wccu2Y86C4MltIy3g$>
>> Home Page
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!V5yS3WiqsE4SSOtcY1SJElXpnzzhFH035NnO1lZ49z3QJYH4kQO68Wccu2Y86C7AtYM8hA$>
>> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>
>> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself
>> composed of three parts:
>>
>>    - Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology
>>    - Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and
>>    - Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy.
>>
>> The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or
>> editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into
>> English,
>>
>> I would start with the 1930 version"
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj_H1JsdVQ$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj0va8zujw$>
>> - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or.
>>
>> The 1817 version has
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj_1XF0IiQ$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj24gIDBAA$>
>> - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective
>> Spirit.
>> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the
>> basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of
>> thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will
>> photocopy it and send it on.
>>
>> Andy
>> ------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Hegel for Social Movements
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj2Rs_DLCQ$>
>> Home Page
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj0L0JHIrA$>
>> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote:
>>
>> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those
>> cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series).
>> It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with
>> questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text.
>>
>> We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey
>> mean when he says:
>>
>> "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation
>> of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."?
>>
>> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number
>> refer to a page number or a section or what?
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj8W04fFOA$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!RLGVUv48gomTR2KJ99jcR-ruYcur4TKLR3u-7WeR_HhShIfYJpHP0U7EwICkluTj4uvZOA$>
>> David Kellogg
>> Sangmyung University
>>
>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
>> Outlines, Spring 2020
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj-JpLENRQ$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RLGVUv48gomTR2KJ99jcR-ruYcur4TKLR3u-7WeR_HhShIfYJpHP0U7EwICkluSzhBnr9w$>
>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *
>> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*"
>>  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj_wh9ODbw$ 
>>
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RLGVUv48gomTR2KJ99jcR-ruYcur4TKLR3u-7WeR_HhShIfYJpHP0U7EwICkluRBlvE9VA$>
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> I[image: Angelus Novus]
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus__;!!Mih3wA!TdBQQPR-bTnIx9Yw4iUDrSZjBM8SLdsDSSgJWTB1zVuHNiaB834h-O5LHdkFFcAZeBSdQQ$>
>
> The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to
> Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940
>
> ---------------------------------------------
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> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu.
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>
>
>
>

-- 

I[image: Angelus Novus] <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj-T6_YZNA$ >

The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to
Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940

---------------------------------------------
Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj_LG7Sn2A$ 
Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu.
Narrative history of LCHC:  lchcautobio.ucsd.edu.
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