[Xmca-l] Re: A practical request (re: memory development)

[David Kellogg]

Anthony:

The longest poem in any language--I think--is the medieval Tibetan epic of
King Gesar: there are about a million verses, more or less. I went once
went to an abridged recitation (without notes of any kind) that lasted four
days. Here is a very short extract done for Chinese television:

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGIwvBmwZcM__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ7MgNk-fg$ 

In one of Vygotsky's very last lectures on school age, he asks the question
of why children remember "thoughts" better than "images" and better than
"structural material". As Andy says, for a three year old with a hammer,
every problem looks like a nail (which is why his account of syncretism
looks like a train ride instead of like the development of Christianity in
Europe, which is what Piaget's own account references). So, as a
linguist, I have always thought of this as meaning that we remember word
meanings better than word sounds and better than grammatical patterns. But
of course this is not just true of children, and of course it's not at all
true of the recitations of King Gesar: the epic is often recited in an
ancient form of Tibetan that is no longer a living language, and so the
images and structures must be rattled off by heart.

So yesterday we were translating a chapter in the Pedology of the
Adolescent on the formation of higher forms of memory. Some of this
material is similar to Chapter Ten of HDHMF (The History of the Development
of the Higher Mental Functions) but not all: the basic idea is that higher
forms of memory are higher in that they are volitional--voluntary--under
intellectual control. That is why its easy for a child to remember a story
with twenty new incidents but very difficult to remember even a short
conversation that has twenty new words or twenty new grammatical
structures.

Bruner's account of "narrative" is that it is autobiography--it builds the
child's all-important sense of SELF. Han Hee-jeung and I tried to
demonstrate that this wasn't true in Korean (see link below): Korean has
very different rules for the kinds of Subjects, Expectation-of-nominals,
Linearization patterns and Focalizations that Bruner said were key to
children's autobiographies and to their concept of self. But what Korean
narratives really DO accomplish is volitional memory.  They turn every
Korean child into a King Gesar performer.

David Kellogg
Sangmyung University

New Article with Han Hee-jeung in Language and Education,Volume 33,
2019 - Issue
6 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/rlae20/33/6__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ5tH6nRzA$ >

'A story without SELF: Vygotsky’s pedology, Bruner’s constructivism and
Halliday’s construalism in understanding narratives by Korean children'

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663?journalCode=rlae20__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ5Iy4cmcw$ 
New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological
Works* *Volume
One: Foundations of Pedology*"
 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ5EoUnxSw$ 


On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 9:39 PM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello! I appreciate the variety of responses to my request for ideas.
> Thank you.
>
> For my own (and anyone else's) convenience, I am gathering the responses
> here:
>
> The question was: "If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory --
> potentially from a disruption in the child's process of development of the
> higher psychological function of memory -- what are some suggestions for A)
> developing this function in non-academic contexts, in order to B) increase
> the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts?"
>
> Your answers include:
>
> 1. Developing pre- or early concepts:
>
>    - Chain complex: playing the Korean word game, 끝말잇기 (e.g., Round 1:
>    Monday-->Daytime-->Timely--"Lytic--"Tick-tock"--"toxin"--"inform"....
>    Round Two is when you try to remember as many of the words as you can in
>    the form of a story.)
>    - Diffuse complexes: mimicking 제사 paternal-line offerings by
>    brainstorming ideas for honoring the maternal line of ancestors
>    - Pseudoconcepts: playing the why game and asking kids to distinguish
>    between different kinds of "because"; reverse-autobiographies
>
> 2. Checking out Titiana Akhutina's related work
>
> 3. Trying to capitalize on the link between memory power and subject
> interest/enjoyment
>
> 4. Helping the child to use and develop metacognition
>
> 5. Designing "instruction" so that what is to be remembered is located
> within the structure of the activity (see 'active orientation'); focusing
> upon understanding rather than memory (e.g., understanding 'techniques of
> recall' rather than mere 'memorization of specific info'); being mindful of
> the distinction between understanding and knowing
>
> 6. Using 'iconic memory' to associate, or link, things with other images
>
> Footnotes:
> Item 1. For anyone interested in an explication of pre-conceptual
> development, including chains, complexes, and pseudoconcepts, this may be
> of value:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/q22asz__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ6sdRtipQ$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/q22asz__;!!Mih3wA!SIUsPxnfrXLmcYjH4mGrrIKiUqiu8sxy6aTep3gAMN2CkYp8uOGBBRSuvkSgW1AgAFGJHQ$>
> "What comes before thinking (Andy Blunden on pre-concepts)"
> Item 5: More on active orientation here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/l53asz__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ6AODNydg$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/l53asz__;!!Mih3wA!SIUsPxnfrXLmcYjH4mGrrIKiUqiu8sxy6aTep3gAMN2CkYp8uOGBBRSuvkSgW1DWuVWm_Q$>
> Item 6. Capitalizing on 'iconic memory' reminds me of a colleague's
> approach to scientific vocabulary acquisition, called "In a Word, In a
> Symbol":
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ma3asz__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ4eqnQ47g$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ma3asz__;!!Mih3wA!SIUsPxnfrXLmcYjH4mGrrIKiUqiu8sxy6aTep3gAMN2CkYp8uOGBBRSuvkSgW1DzfB0WOA$>
> Robert Chesbro, "Personalized Vocabulary Learning in the Middle School
> Classroom") -- a student sample here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/xg3asz__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ718xgKGA$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/xg3asz__;!!Mih3wA!SIUsPxnfrXLmcYjH4mGrrIKiUqiu8sxy6aTep3gAMN2CkYp8uOGBBRSuvkSgW1AK68hrrQ$>
>
> Thanks again for these and any future ideas.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Anthony Barra
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:37 AM Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Harshad, which is your personal name, please (what I would call a
>> Christian name), is it Harshad or Dave?
>>
>> Anthony,
>>
>> To help place Harshad's (*) experience (which is frequently reported)
>> within the theoretical and experimental literature of the Russian (and in
>> my opinion, more rigorous) aspects of the literature, design "instruction"
>> so that what is to be remembered (if that is actually a goal, which seems
>> dubious - see next paragraph) is located within the structure of the
>> child's activity. The child's activity is not necessarily the same thing as
>> the activity that the adult intends, this is one reason why I call it
>> active orientation.
>>
>> Another way to put this is, do not even worry about memory, focus upon
>> understanding instead. Or, if you are concerned about remembering anything
>> (like a phone number) focus upon understanding techniques of recall. Note
>> that by understanding, I do not mean merely knowing. This seemingly simple
>> epistemological distinction between understanding and knowing is an
>> important principle of developmental education which distinguishes it from
>> many conventional schooling practices.
>>
>> I'm happy to send you references, papers, or correspond offline if you
>> wish.
>>
>> Best,
>> Huw
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 at 05:16, Harshad Dave <hhdave15@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I am not much aware and experience with the subject matter under
>>> discussion.... however i share one observation that i have noted in the
>>> journey of my life and i hope you might have also.
>>>
>>> The memory power has strong link with our self interest in the subject
>>> matter.
>>> If parent/teacher make the subject matter very interesting for the kids,
>>> and get their interest tempted in the issue..... the kids / students grasps
>>> the same immediately and that too for a long time also.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Harshad Dave
>>>
>>> On Thu, 9 Jul 2020, 08:45 mike cole, <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If I were seeking professional information a child I was concerned
>>>> about for the reasons
>>>> relate, Anthony, and I was interested in how a cultural-historical
>>>> psychologist thinks about
>>>> such matters, I would check the work of Tatiana Akhutina whose writings
>>>> can be found on
>>>> Academia.
>>>> mike
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:23 PM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Anthony--
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm conflicted.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am working on a  "Capstone Design" class preparing sex education
>>>>> materials. It's pretty interesting stuff, because for the first time in the
>>>>> child's life the child is experiencing "perizhivanie" which has CONCEPTUAL
>>>>> content without any EXPERIENTIAL content. To me, this suggests a change in
>>>>> ALL psychological functions: affective perception (obviously), attention
>>>>> (as an immediate result) and memory (which ipso facto cannot play the same
>>>>> role in creating generalized representations that it once did),
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, the materials that the Gyeonggi-do provincial government
>>>>> developed teach AIDS/HIV prevention with something I would basically call a
>>>>> multiple choice/true false test. You give the child a dozen different ways
>>>>> in which people interact (going to the Korean sauna together, sharing
>>>>> chopsticks, kissing, sitting on an unwiped toilet seat, etc.) and the child
>>>>> has to choose the only two which actually do spread AIDS (sharing needles
>>>>> and having unproteced sex). This is an example of what I would call
>>>>> "backwash"--you start out with the test, which is essentially
>>>>> diagnostic and not pedagogical in design. You then work backwards. And
>>>>> because we all like to take the fastest and most direct route to the
>>>>> object, you end up teaching to the test. Which is, almost by definition,
>>>>> bad teaching.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm afraid I see some of this in Nikolai's lecture. He starts out (as
>>>>> he often does) with a very useful distinction between tools for research
>>>>> and tools for pedagogy (or, in the instance of perizhivanie, between tools
>>>>> for research and tools for thinking about research). But in his natural
>>>>> enthusiasm for research there is a bit of backwash--towards making what are
>>>>> essentially ANALYTICAL stages into PEDAGOGICAL ones.
>>>>>
>>>>> Vygotsky derives his four stages (in T&S and also in Chapter 5 of
>>>>> HDHMF) from Buhler. Buhler tells us that there are three historical stages
>>>>> of human behavior (unconditional instincts, conditional habits, creative
>>>>> intelligence) and he thinks these will be useful in analyzing childhood
>>>>> into periods. Vygotsky agrees, but he points out that free will is none of
>>>>> these (think of sexual consent, and you will see--it is a higher form of
>>>>> behavior that owes very little to instinct, habit, or even creativity and
>>>>> is in some ways inimical to all three). Vygotsky also points out that ALL
>>>>> of these forms (including free will) are present right there in infancy, so
>>>>> using the to analyze childhood will involve analyzing each period that way
>>>>> and not simply assigning behaviors to age periods one to one. All of this
>>>>> suggests to me that natural memory (an instinct), naive memory (a
>>>>> conditional habit), external-sign-memory (creative intelligence) and
>>>>> "vraschivaniye" (free memory) are analytical tools and not pedagogical ones.
>>>>>
>>>>> But what would a pedagogy informed by this mean? I don't know. I think
>>>>> it would first of all have to be age-period-sensitive. A ten year old is
>>>>> after the Crisis at Seven and before the Crisis at Thirteen. The memories
>>>>> in question ARE experiential (they are not  fantasies); they are
>>>>> generalized representations (e.g. chain-like narratives, diffuse complexes
>>>>> like family trees, and above all pseudoconcepts).  Here are some activities
>>>>> I have used.
>>>>>
>>>>> CHAINS:  You play 끝말잇기 a well known word game in Korean. Round One is
>>>>> when each player offers a two-syllable word, repeating the the
>>>>> last syllable of the previous word and then adding a new syllable.  In
>>>>> English it might go something like this:
>>>>> "Monday-->Daytime-->Timely--"Lytic--"Tick-tock"--"toxin"--"inform"....
>>>>> Round Two is when you try to remember as many of the words as you can in
>>>>> the form of a story. "On Monday, during the daytime, I chose a timely
>>>>> moment to read Leontiev's definition of lytic periods in child development
>>>>> and try to apply them to Sarah Cooper's impersonations of Donald Trump on
>>>>> Tick-tock, but the toxic masculinity which informed....etc."
>>>>>
>>>>> DIFFUSE COMPLEXES: In Korea, we do "제사" offerings to four generations
>>>>> in the patrilineal line. Suppose you also want to honor your maternal
>>>>> ancestors. Can you remember anything about them? Their places of birth and
>>>>> death?  What would a family history in the matrilineal line look like?
>>>>> Where would it begin and where would it end?
>>>>>
>>>>> PSEUDOCONCEPTS: This is a version of the "why" game that eight year
>>>>> old children sometimes play. You start out with a simple fact, like "Kids
>>>>> eat food". You ask why. "Because they are hungry". You ask why. etc. You
>>>>> then ask the child to distinguish between different kinds of "because".
>>>>> Another version of this involves asking the child to create an
>>>>> autobiography, starting with the cover and the LAST chapter, then the
>>>>> penulitmate one, then the one before that, etc. and then asking how they
>>>>> are causally related (I usually ask the kids to do this photographs if they
>>>>> are too young....)
>>>>>
>>>>> (Mutatis mutandis...as you can see, it's sex education all the way
>>>>> down!)
>>>>>
>>>>> David Kellogg
>>>>> Sangmyung University
>>>>>
>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020
>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ78iHhnbA$ 
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VuYDft0oMGAM9qY8EcRo06LVSNymMSpaDqYioRUquNkHbecO40qUVxiIBz7uouo2Dj05uQ$>
>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological
>>>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*"
>>>>>  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ5EoUnxSw$ 
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VuYDft0oMGAM9qY8EcRo06LVSNymMSpaDqYioRUquNkHbecO40qUVxiIBz7uourLKiFoUw$>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:53 AM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Good afternoon ~
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I come to you (as a parent and as a teacher) seeking advice and
>>>>>> information, knowing this listserv is one of the best collective resources
>>>>>> on the subject at hand.  Thank you in advance for your thoughts . . .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FIRST, here is the question:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially
>>>>>>    from a disruption in the child’s process of development of the
>>>>>>    higher psychological function of memory --  what are some
>>>>>>    suggestions for A) developing this function in non-academic contexts, in
>>>>>>    order to B) increase the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SECOND, here is the theory (and source) behind the question:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Vygotsky’s “Law of 4 Stages” - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/q3p7rz__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ4FqqYSFg$ 
>>>>>>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/q3p7rz__;!!Mih3wA!XPc6MihE_2JAUm1FVECluRHB-fBm7usjC6m6SkGx3Gzr6clVrtOVLXXkggL7q-oW4gcVJg$>
>>>>>>    (also, cf. "The Problem of the Cultural Development of the Child")
>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    In place of watching the (very good) 7-minute video, please refer
>>>>>>    to these two excerpts that richly capture the video’s gist:
>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       From Clip 1 (“Vygotsky’s law of 4 stages”):
>>>>>>       -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          “This is the law that says there are 4 stages of the
>>>>>>          development of every higher psychological function. It gives us a key to
>>>>>>          understanding: if something goes wrong with the child, if the child has a
>>>>>>          difficulty, maybe one of these stages didn’t go correctly.
>>>>>>          -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             Stage 1 - natural behavior (no use of signs)
>>>>>>             -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             Stage 2 - naive psychology (naive imitation)
>>>>>>             -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             Stage 3 - external signs and operations (beyond crude
>>>>>>             imitation but still reliant on external tools)
>>>>>>             -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             Stage 4 - internal signs and operations (internalized
>>>>>>             tools; decontextualized mediational means)
>>>>>>             -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       From Clip 2 (“How this law can help teachers and students"):
>>>>>>       -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          “Put the child in specially created situations -- might be
>>>>>>          play, game, competition, whatever -- and introduce these tools he or she
>>>>>>          probably doesn’t have -- and then, having these internal tools, the child
>>>>>>          comes back to the class equipped with the tools, and now the task will be
>>>>>>          much easier for the child . . . because the tools are not related anymore
>>>>>>          to the concrete task (in which they were developed).  They are universal.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With these assumptions in mind (and choosing to accept them at least
>>>>>> for now), here is the question again:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially
>>>>>>    from a disruption in the child’s process of development of the
>>>>>>    higher psychological function of memory --  what are some
>>>>>>    suggestions for A) developing this function in non-academic contexts, in
>>>>>>    order to B) increase the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincere thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> It is unwise to run after people for their own good- Traditional Vai
>>>> Proverb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ6xu2nXVg$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TKR7XIT3zeJIzwF2x4xUdMGsgKy616QkR_CM7-IaU5uu7KiU0O5fbGIrmaEfyepyL0WZRg$>
>>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!TKR7XIT3zeJIzwF2x4xUdMGsgKy616QkR_CM7-IaU5uu7KiU0O5fbGIrmaEfyeq_d8zlrg$>
>>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu.
>>>> Narrative history of LCHC:  lchcautobio.ucsd.edu.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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