[Xmca-l] Re: "this remarkable list" (Gabosch, 2002)

Thu Aug 20 15:32:41 PDT 2020

It would be great to gather answers to that question from everyone on XMCA,
Anthony. Or coordinate a zoom session where
everyone provides an example and there is adequate provision for later
discussion/reflection.

Can you say just a tad more about *"when the teaching 'works' e.g., is
appropriated and built upon"*?

When I work through the process of writing an academic essay with a student
who is first struggling with, say, the study of culture
in development. Their initial account has many interesting ideas in it, but
the underlying story (aka logig) is unclear and the conclusion
is confused.  Transition points in the presumbed argument aren't clear.
After working through the intro and the next couple of sections, the
argument starts to
become clearer. A session or two later the transitions come more easily.
The final draft is a big improvement, perhaps it even has a solidly stated
conclusion.
THe first draft of the next piece of writing is qualitatively better than
its predecessor.  In discussion of other student papers the student
introduces basic
ideas from his/her own work in a way that is productive for other
participants, including me. The student is predisposed to continue the
process. I come away
with new ideas about the content of the discussions and the process of
obuchenie.

By appropriated I mean taken up some manner and integrated into one's
cultural tool kit.  A handy thing about this term is
that appropriate also means normative for the social circumstances.  From
this perspective, one is passing and managing all the time.
(I recently met a younger scholar whose work I greatly admired who
commented in a seminar that they felt like an imposter. Others nodded
sympathetically.
I was dumbfounded. The person had been acting totally appropriately
academically, socially, a successful young scholar).

Specifying the sufficient and necessary conditions to create the kinds of
interactions where cognition is distributed in the process of also seems
like an important
part of the process. For now I would simply refer you to the next part of
the slides I was showing in that clip about a "zoped" you showed. The
notion of a zoped that
arose in my work with Peg and lchcophiles speaks to that problem.

I have broken my own injunction to avid taking up too much xmca discourse
space. And not to continue discussions started by/with all
white males.  Back to the dungeon.

mike

tell you that s/he had gone to the movies on Saturday and seen, say

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 11:56 AM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thanks, Mike.
>
> Can you say just a tad more about *"when the teaching 'works' e.g., is
> appropriated and built upon"*?
>
> I have a sense of what you mean, and what it means in my own experience --
> but if time and mood allow, could you spare a few more sentences from your
> own valuable POV?
>
> After all, "when the teaching works" is one of the main things many of us
> are going for : )
>
> Thanks,
>
> Anthony
>
> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 2:42 PM mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
>> David, Anthorny.....
>>
>> I went back and found this exchange with the article and the
>> translation.  Seems like a candidate for a good translation
>> and a quick posting on C/P.
>>
>> I would be careful with google translation, although its a reasonable
>> first pass. Speaking of mistranslations
>> the English 6 volume translate of the term "vryashchivanie"  is
>> translated variously, from ingrowing to interiorization
>> to revolution and google likes rotating.  Its enough to make your head
>> spin.
>>
>> I am for sure not the best instructor I ever met, but I have always
>> learned a lot from teaching. I find what I believe to be
>> a genuine feeling of humility when the teaching "works", e.g., is
>> appropriated and built upon. Like David, I feel uncomfortable
>> when in my excitement after a meeting I say this to people who consider
>> me a teacher -- as if it is false humbleness. But it isn't.
>> We all over attribute what happens to us positively if events go well.
>> But when education is developmental education, obuchenie
>> becomes a two way street.
>>
>> 2 kopeks of distraction
>> mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> My experiences with online
>> teaching go a long way back to the beginnings of interactive TV and I
>> really like the experiences I have had so far. The
>> past couple of years have been particularly rich learning experiences for
>> me.  These learning experiences just might have
>> been sufficient to induce a qualitative change in my intellectual
>> development .... Whether it is a qualitative change up, or
>> down, or just another lap around the track searching for the ladder has
>> yet to become clear.
>>
>> I agree
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 3:48 PM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Anthony--
>>>
>>> As far as I know, it's never been translated. But you can find it in
>>> Russian at the Electronic Library of Moscow State University--right here:
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://psychlib.ru/mgppu/VUR/VUR-0331.htm*$p33__;Iw!!Mih3wA!S0dyScAUWdtQ7BLVECUaOmGM6gOdJmyI8ygSB6Era0jDbf0xSb-4T5XTMyIvulM_ADSiRw$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://psychlib.ru/mgppu/VUR/VUR-0331.htm*$p33__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Rs_L1xTA4cK7ZLj1xktMYU2QoDLfV1QvnStvCyYqfiG4i8MJ26pTlc9y9e8EH9WCcJfqmQ$>
>>>
>>> If your Russian is anything like mine (i.e. limited to a very narrow
>>> register) you'll need a translation to make sense of it. But you'll find
>>> that if you right click on the text, it will bring to bear the power of
>>> Google Translate. Since Google Translate operates with established
>>> translations of Vygotsky, and since Vygotsky does tend to repeat his
>>> formulations when he's got one that he likes, you will find that the result
>>> is quite usable.
>>>
>>> (Of course you know that I didn't mean to imply that you only took away
>>> the framing anecdote, Anthony; I was just trying to think of a hypothetical
>>> example that didn't involve the theatre--theatrics are not always a bad
>>> thing when you are in a theatre. However, I really DID mean what I said
>>> about the pleasure of teaching-learning for the TEACHER: it IS
>>> underemphasized and it DOES explain a lot about how ideas do manage to
>>> outlive the bodies that have them. I guess we tend to explain this pleasure
>>> by talking about how much we ourselves have learned from the experience of
>>> teaching, and I suppose that does SOUND humble and modest, although when
>>> you think about it what I am really saying when I say that is that I am
>>> still the best teacher I have ever met. For me, the humility is keener and
>>> borders on humiliation--I learn the hard way how much I have to learn about
>>> cultivating an on-line teaching persona, modulating my intonation, not
>>> stroking my beard all the time and sticking to the point rather better than
>>> I am wont to do in class. If my students can survive all that, maybe the
>>> ideas will too....)
>>>
>>> David Kellogg
>>> Sangmyung University
>>>
>>> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity:
>>> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday,
>>> Hasan, and Vygotsky
>>>
>>> Some free e-prints today available at:
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!S0dyScAUWdtQ7BLVECUaOmGM6gOdJmyI8ygSB6Era0jDbf0xSb-4T5XTMyIvulNQa5FADA$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!Rs_L1xTA4cK7ZLj1xktMYU2QoDLfV1QvnStvCyYqfiG4i8MJ26pTlc9y9e8EH9WXV3cPhQ$>
>>>
>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works
>>> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology"
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!S0dyScAUWdtQ7BLVECUaOmGM6gOdJmyI8ygSB6Era0jDbf0xSb-4T5XTMyIvulOyMoRYQQ$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Rs_L1xTA4cK7ZLj1xktMYU2QoDLfV1QvnStvCyYqfiG4i8MJ26pTlc9y9e8EH9UWNSuBKw$>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:50 AM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Good afternoon,
>>>>
>>>> In a search for an article cited in S. Chaiklin's great "The zone of
>>>> proximal development in Vygotsky’s analysis of learning and instruction"
>>>> (2003), I stumbled upon a post that I believe many here will enjoy
>>>> re-reading:
>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2002_11.dir/0156.html
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>> Anthony
>>>>
>>>> P.S.  Here is the article I was searching for (in case anyone can help):
>>>>
>>>>    - Vygotsky, L. S. (1935a). Dinamika umstvennogo razvitiza
>>>>    shkol’nika v svjazi s obucheniem. In Umstvennoie razvitie detei v protsesse
>>>>    obuchenia (pp. 33-52). Moscow/Leningrad: Gosudarstvennoie
>>>>    Uchebno-pedagogicheskoie Izdatel’stvo.
>>>>
>>>> And the reference, in context:
>>>>
>>>>> "In one article, which as far as I know is neither translated nor
>>>>> readily available, Vygotsky (1935a) describes a set of experiments in which
>>>>> children are tested and identified to have a high or low IQ as well as a
>>>>> large or small zone (as determined by the kind of procedure described in
>>>>> the previous paragraph). Subsequent school success is determined, and it
>>>>> appears that the size of the zone of proximal development was more
>>>>> predictive than IQ. That is, children with a larger zone of proximal
>>>>> development (i.e., more maturing functions are currently available) had
>>>>> comparable intellectual development, regardless of IQ. Similarly, children
>>>>> with a smaller zone of proximal development had a comparable intellectual
>>>>> development, regardless of the initially measured IQ. In other words, the
>>>>> zone of proximal development gave a better indication for
>>>>> predicting/understanding future intellectual development than a measure of
>>>>> independent performance, where the explanation is that the greater number
>>>>> of maturing functions gives a child better opportunities to benefit from
>>>>> school instruction. A detailed summary of this article is found in van der
>>>>> Veer and Valsiner (1991, pp. 336-341)." (Chaiklin, 2003, p. 12-13).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> I[image: Angelus Novus]
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus__;!!Mih3wA!UmPtbsE6sb-K9IJHK-rD37j6s0q2xjWinNR4yhUTl0rTVs4cM88L3Fqz7B6mzvNP5vAR0w$>The
>> Angel's View of History
>>
>> It is only in a social context that subjectivism and objectivism,
>> spiritualism and materialism, activity and passivity cease to be
>> antinomies, and thus cease to exist as such antinomies. The resolution of
>> the theoretical contradictions is possible only through practical means,
>> only through the practical energy of humans. (Marx, 1844).
>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!S0dyScAUWdtQ7BLVECUaOmGM6gOdJmyI8ygSB6Era0jDbf0xSb-4T5XTMyIvulNVHqk7BQ$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UmPtbsE6sb-K9IJHK-rD37j6s0q2xjWinNR4yhUTl0rTVs4cM88L3Fqz7B6mzvPwXT_R9g$>
>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!UmPtbsE6sb-K9IJHK-rD37j6s0q2xjWinNR4yhUTl0rTVs4cM88L3Fqz7B6mzvPrhyrqgw$>
>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu.
>> Narrative history of LCHC:  lchcautobio.ucsd.edu.
>>
>>
>>
>>

-- 

I[image: Angelus Novus] <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus__;!!Mih3wA!S0dyScAUWdtQ7BLVECUaOmGM6gOdJmyI8ygSB6Era0jDbf0xSb-4T5XTMyIvulOuqGdSsA$ >The
Angel's View of History

It is only in a social context that subjectivism and objectivism,
spiritualism and materialism, activity and passivity cease to be
antinomies, and thus cease to exist as such antinomies. The resolution of
the theoretical contradictions is possible only through practical means,
only through the practical energy of humans. (Marx, 1844).
Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!S0dyScAUWdtQ7BLVECUaOmGM6gOdJmyI8ygSB6Era0jDbf0xSb-4T5XTMyIvulNVHqk7BQ$ 
Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu.
Narrative history of LCHC:  lchcautobio.ucsd.edu.
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