[Xmca-l] Re: Saussure vs Peirce

Sun Mar 17 20:45:42 PDT 2019

Andy,
Narrative and concept bring to my mind a distinction I remember reading about in a linguistics text by John Lyons: The syntagmatic (for example the narrative) and the syntagmatic (for example the concepts evoked within a narrative). 

Talking of relations, how do you see the relation between narrative and dialog? As a linguist, I especially like dialog, because I think it’s plausible that complex syntax--ofter exceedingly, yet pleasantly and effectively complex in (some) novels--developed in the misty past by a sort of pushing together of syntactically simpler turns--conversational turns often simply filling in the “blanks" left by other turns. 

I apologize, if none of this makes sense to anybody but me. I was worried that it would just be trivial, but I think the linked computer science article implies that the syntagmatic/paradigmatic issue is relevant to this subject line, largely because Saussure appears at the end of the article. I confess I gave up trying to understand the article. Is there anybody out there that could show the relevance of the article to what has been said so far since related to Saussure and Peirce? 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/pra2.2015.1450520100122 <https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/pra2.2015.1450520100122>

Henry

> On Mar 17, 2019, at 6:20 PM, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
> 
> David, I do deplore sloppiness, and apart form the issue of utterance=word, I found a lot of sloppiness in the quote, but not so much as to be worth analysis.
> 
> But Bakhtin is correct in saying that a novel is an utterance. Like when we say "After his experiences in Spain, Orwell published Homage to Catalonia and the Communist Party responded with a barrage of criticism ..."
> 
> What interests me though is the intimate and inextricable relation between narrative and concept, each constituting the other. 
> 
> Andy
> 
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
> On 18/03/2019 8:17 am, David Kellogg wrote:
>> Well, Bakhtin is full of precisely the kind of sloppiness that Andy is deploring, Helena. So for example Bakhtin says that a whole novel can be considered as an utterance. You take down the book and open it. The novelist has something to say to you. He says it. And then you close the book and you put it back on the shelf.
>> 
>> That's all very well, and it's very useful as a way of showing that literature is not some "state within a state": it is also made of language stuff, by people who have a historical existence and not just an afterlife. But it doesn't help Andy (or me, or my wife who studies these things full time) distinguish sub-units within the novel which will help us understand how novels are structured, how this structure has changed with their function, and how the very functions have changed as literature has evolved. And these WERE the problems which Bakhtin set himself (e.g. in "Novel and Epic" and elsewhere).
>> 
>> We see the same problem from the other end (micro-rather than macroscopic) with the minimal pair (originally, in the work of Sacks, "adjacency pair"). It's all very well and it's           very useful as a way of understanding how conversations get structured as they go along, how people know when its their turn to talk and how they know when the rules have been broken. But it doesn't help us to understand, for example, why we all feel that when you say "How are you?" and somebody says "Fine, thanks, and you?" there seem to be three utterances in the second pair part, and the exchange as a whole doesn't seem finished, even though if we are using turns as the element (pair part) of the minimal pair, it really should be.
>> 
>> Craig Brandist remarks that Bakhtin uses the term "dialogue" in so many different ways that he has rendered it meaningless. I think the same thing is true of the way he uses "utterance". 
>> 
>> David Kellogg
>> Sangmyung University
>> 
>> New Article;
>> 
>>  David Kellogg (2019) THE STORYTELLER’S TALE: VYGOTSKY’S ‘VRASHCHIVANIYA’, THE ZONE OF PROXIMAL DEVELOPMENT AND ‘INGROWING’ IN THE WEEKEND STORIES OF KOREAN CHILDREN, British Journal of Educational Studies, DOI: 10.1080/00071005.2019.1569200 <https://doi.org/10.1080/00071005.2019.1569200>                                
>> 
>> Some e-prints available at:
>> 
>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/GSS2cTAVAz2jaRdPIkvj/full?target=10.1080/00071005.2019.1569200 <https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/GSS2cTAVAz2jaRdPIkvj/full?target=10.1080/00071005.2019.1569200> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 1:47 AM Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com <mailto:helenaworthen@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> I find it useful to think of an utterance as bounded on two ends: on one, by the utterance to which it responds, on the other, by the utterance that responds to it. Thus you can discern utterances within utterances. Minimally, a two -part exchange, as Martin says; maximally, a whole stream of briefer utterances bounded by their prompt and response.  
>> 
>> Helena Worthen
>> helenaworthen@gmail.com <mailto:helenaworthen@gmail.com>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 17, 2019, at 9:32 AM, Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net <mailto:mpacker@cantab.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> According to conversation analysts, the minimal unit in conversation is the adjacency pair: a two-part exchange in which the second utterance is functionally dependent on the first.  Question-answer; greeting-greeting; request-reply, and so on. An utterance, then, is both a turn and a move within a conversation.  An utterance is *not* “complete in itself” - it is a component in a larger organization: at least a pair, and usually a much longer sequence.
>>> 
>>> Martin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 16, 2019, at 3:11 AM, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I would  have appreciated a definition of some kind of what the writer actually means by "utterance." In absence of that "the word, as a compressed version of the utterance" is nonsense, or at least a step backwards because it obliterates a concept. Otherwise, I wouldn't mind saying that the two are together the micro- and macro-units of dialogue (or something having that meaning). The same as Leontyev has two units of activity: action and activity, and Marx has two units of political economy: commodity and capital. To theorise a complex process you always need two units. 
>>>> 
>>>> The rest of what you have cited reminds me of what Constantin Stanislavskii said about the units of an actor's performance:
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/stanislavskii.pdf <https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/stanislavskii.pdf>
>>>> Andy
>>>> 
>>>> Andy Blunden
>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>>>> On 16/03/2019 5:42 pm, Arturo Escandon wrote:
>>>>> Thanks for that conceptual jewel, mate. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Let me bring here Akhutina to further show their complementariness:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The minimal holistic unit of conversation is the utterance. An utterance, unlike a sentence, is complete in itself. The utterance always carries within it the marks and features of who is speaking to whom, for what reason and in what situation; it is polyphonic. An utterance develops from a motivation, “a volitional objective” and progresses through inner speech to external speech. The prime mover of the semantic progression (from the inner word that is comprehensible to me alone to the external speech that he, the listener, will understand) is the comparison of my subjective, evanescent sense, which I attribute to the given word, and its objective (constant for both me and my listener) meaning.Thus, the major building material for speech production is the living two-voice word. But polyphony is a feature of the utterance as expressed in the word; the word carrying personal sense is an abbreviation of the utterance. Thus, the utterance and the word, as a compressed version of the utterance, are the units of speech acts, communication, and consciousness.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best
>>>>> 
>>>>> Arturo
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Sent from Gmail Mobile
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Martin
>>> 
>>> "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself” (Malinowski, 1930)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 

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