[Xmca-l] Re: language and music

Wed Nov 21 07:00:21 PST 2018

Hear Hear Alfredo!

And it seems like making sense of this muddle requires some notion of
something like "intersubjectivity" (and "attention", as in "joint
attention").
https://www.academia.edu/37226776/_2018_Intersubjectivity
(note Rommetveit's work is considered quite a bit in the above, also Jack
Sidnell, as well as a little of

But that really depends on how you look at it.
-greg

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 1:09 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@ils.uio.no>
wrote:

> Henry's remarks about no directors and symphonic potential of
> conversation reminded me of G. Bateson's metalogue "why do things have
> outlines" (attached). Implicitly, it raises the question of units and
> elements, of how a song, a dance, a poem, a conversation, to make sense,
> they must have a recognizable outline, even in improvisation; they must
> be wholes, or suggest wholes. That makes them "predictable". And yet, when
> you are immersed in a conversation, the fact that you can
> never exactly predict what comes next is the whole point that keep
> us talking, dancing, drawing, etc!
>
>
> Alfredo
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 21 November 2018 06:22
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: language and music
>
> I’d like to add to the call and response conversation that discourse, this
> conversation itself, is staged. There are performers and and an audience
> made up partly of performers themselves. How many are lurkers, as I am
> usually? This conversation has no director, but there are leaders. There is
> symphonic potential. And even gestural potential, making the chat a dance.
> All on line.:)
> Henry
>
>
>
> On Nov 20, 2018, at 9:05 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> For many years I used the work of Ellen Dissenyake to teach comm classes
> about language/music/development. She is quite unusual in ways that might
> find interest here.
>
> https://ellendissanayake.com/
>
> mike
>
> On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 2:16 PM James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hello Simangele,
>>
>> In semiotic terms, whatever each of the participants has constructed
>> internally is the signified, i.e. his or her understanding and
>> interpretation. When it is vocalised (spoken out), it becomes the signifier
>> to the listener. What's more, when the participants work together to
>> compose a story impromptu, each of their signifiers turns into a new
>> signified – a shared, newly-established understanding, woven into the
>> fabric of meaning making.
>>
>> By the way, in Chinese language, words for singing and dancing have long
>> been used inseparably. As I see it, they are semiotically indexed to, or
>> adjusted to allow for, the feelings, emotions, actions and interactions of
>> a consciousness who is experiencing the singing and dancing. Here are some
>> idioms:
>>
>> 酣歌醉舞 - singing and dancing rapturously
>>
>> 村歌社舞 - dancing village and singing club
>>
>> 燕歌赵舞 - citizens of ancient Yan and Zhao good at singing and dancing,
>> hence referring to wonderful songs and dances
>>
>> 舞榭歌楼 - a church or building set up for singing and dancing
>>
>>
>>
>> James
>>
>> *________________________________________________*
>>
>> *James Ma  Independent Scholar **https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
>> <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa>   *
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 at 19:08, Simangele Mayisela <
>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Colleagues,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This conversation is getting even more interesting, not that I have an
>>> informed answer for you Rob, I can only think of the National Anthems where
>>> people stand still when singing, even then this is observed only in
>>> international events.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Other occasions when people are likely not to move when singing when
>>> there is death and the mood is sombre. Otherwise singing and rhythmic body
>>> movement, called dance are a norm.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This then makes me  wonder what this means in terms of cognitive
>>> functioning, in the light of Vygotsky’s developmental stages – of language
>>> and thought. Would the body movement constitute the externalisation of the
>>> thoughts contained in the music?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Helena – the video you are relating about reminds of the language
>>> teaching or group therapy technique- where a group of learners (or
>>> participants in OD settings) are instructed to tell a single coherent and
>>> logical story as a group. They all take turns to say a sentence, a sentence
>>> of not more than 6 words (depending on the instructor ), each time linking
>>> your sentence to the sentence of previous articulator, with the next person
>>> also doing the same, until the story sounds complete with conclusion. More
>>> important is that they compose this story impromptu, It with such stories
>>> that group dynamics are analysed, and in group therapy cases, collective
>>> experiences of trauma are shared.  I suppose this is an example of
>>> cooperative activity, although previously I would have thought of it as
>>> just an “activity”
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Simangele
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *robsub@ariadne.org.uk
>>> *Sent:* Friday, 16 November 2018 21:01
>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>;
>>> Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com>
>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Michael C. Corballis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I remember being told once that many languages do not have separate
>>> words for singing and dancing, because if you sing you want to move - until
>>> western civilisation beats it out of you.
>>>
>>> Does anybody know if this is actually true, or is it complete cod?
>>>
>>> If it is true, does it have something to say about the relationship
>>> between the physical body and the development of speech?
>>>
>>> Rob
>>>
>>> On 16/11/2018 17:29, Helena Worthen wrote:
>>>
>>> I am very interested in where this conversation is going. I remember
>>> being in a Theories of Literacy class in which Glynda Hull, the instructor,
>>> showed a video of a singing circle somewhere in the Amazon, where an
>>> incredibly complicated pattern of musical phrases wove in and out among the
>>> singers underlaid by drumming that included turn-taking, call and response,
>>> you name it. Maybe 20 people were involved, all pushing full steam ahead to
>>> create something together that they all seemed to know about but wouldn’t
>>> happen until they did it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Certainly someone has studied the relationship of musical communication
>>> (improvised or otherwise), speech and gesture? I have asked musicians about
>>> this and get blank looks. Yet clearly you can tell when you listen to
>>> different kinds of music, not just Amazon drum and chant circles, that
>>> there is some kind of speech - like potential embedded there. The Sonata
>>> form is clearly involves exposition (they even use that word).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For example: the soundtrack to the Coen Brothers’ film Fargo opens with
>>> a musical theme that says, as clearly as if we were reading aloud from some
>>> children’s book, “I am now going to tell you a very strange story that
>>> sounds impossible but I promise you every word of it is
>>> true…da-de-da-de-da.’ Only it doesn’t take that many words.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (18) Fargo (1996) - 'Fargo, North Dakota' (Opening) scene [1080] -
>>> YouTube
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Helena Worthen
>>>
>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com
>>>
>>> Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745
>>>
>>> Blog US/ Viet Nam:
>>>
>>> helenaworthen.wordpress.com
>>>
>>> skype: helena.worthen1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 16, 2018, at 8:56 AM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andy and Peter,
>>>
>>> I like the turn taking principle a lot. It links language and music very
>>> nicely: call and response. By voice and ear. While gesture is linked to
>>> visual art. In face-to-face conversation there is this rhythmically
>>> entrained interaction. It’s not just cooperative, it’s verbal/gestural art.
>>> Any human work is potentially a work of art. Vera John-Steiner and Holbrook
>>> Mahn have talked about how conversation can be a co-construction “at the
>>> speed of thought”.  Heady stuff taking part, or just listening to, this
>>> call and response between smart people.  And disheartening and destructive
>>> when we give up on dialog.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As I write this, I realize that the prosodic aspects of spoken language
>>> (intonation) are gestural as well. It’s simplistic to restrict gesture to
>>> visual signals. But I would say gesture is prototypically visual, an
>>> accompaniment to the voice. In surfing the web, one can find some
>>> interesting things on paralanguage which complicate the distinction between
>>> language and gesture. I think it speaks to the embodiment of language in
>>> the senses.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Henry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 16, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andy,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I couldn't agree more. And thanks for introducing me to the notion
>>> of delayed gratification as a precondition for sharing and turn-taking.
>>>
>>> That's a feature I hadn't considered before in connection with speech
>>> communication. It makes sense that each participant would need
>>>
>>> to exercise patience in order to wait out someone else's turn.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Much obliged.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:50 AM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Interesting, Peter.
>>>
>>> Corballis, oddly in my view, places a lot of weight in so-called mirror
>>> neurons to explain perception of the intentionality of others. It seems
>>> blindingly obvious to me that cooperative activity, specifically
>>> participating in projects in which individuals share a common not-present
>>> object, is a form of behaviour which begets the necessary perceptive
>>> abilities. I have also long been of the view that delayed gratification, as
>>> a precondition for sharing and turn-taking, as a matter of fact, is an
>>> important aspect of sociality fostering the development of speech, and the
>>> upright gait which frees the hands for carrying food back to camp where it
>>> can be shared is important. None of which presupposes tools, only
>>> cooperation.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Andy Blunden
>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=itd0qPWlE7uAuyEX0ii8ohEoZegfdMAOOLf-YoaEqqs&s=-uwTjZDhHtJM2EFdBS-rXLTptADQdSGAcibaav-mhJw&e=>
>>>
>>> On 17/11/2018 12:36 am, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] wrote:
>>>
>>> If I might chime in to this discussion:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I submit that the key cooperative activity underlying speech
>>> communication is *turn-taking*. I don't know how that activity or rule came
>>> into being,
>>>
>>> but once it did, the activity of *exchanging* utterances became
>>> possible. And with exchange came the complementarity of speaking and
>>>
>>> listening roles, and the activity of alternating conversational roles
>>> and mental perspectives. Turn-taking is a key process in human development.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 9:21 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Oddly, Amazon delivered the book to me yesterday and I am currently on
>>> p.5. Fortunately, Corballis provides a synopsis of his book at the end,
>>> which I sneak-previewed last night.
>>>
>>> The interesting thing to me is his claim, similar to that of Merlin
>>> Donald, which goes like this.
>>>
>>> It would be absurd to suggest that proto-humans discovered that they had
>>> this unique and wonderful vocal apparatus and decided to use it for speech.
>>> Clearly* there was rudimentary language before speech was humanly
>>> possible*. In development, a behaviour is always present before the
>>> physiological adaptations which facilitate it come into being. I.e,
>>> proto-humans found themselves in circumstances where it made sense to
>>> develop interpersonal, voluntary communication, and to begin with they used
>>> what they had - the ability to mime and gesture, make facial expressions
>>> and vocalisations (all of which BTW can reference non-present entities and
>>> situations) This is an activity which further produces the conditions for
>>> its own development. Eventually, over millions of years, the vocal
>>> apparatus evolved under strong selection pressure due to the practice of
>>> non-speech communication as an integral part of their evolutionary niche.
>>> In other words, rudimentary wordless speech gradually became modern
>>> speech, along with all the accompanying facial expressions and hand
>>> movements.
>>>
>>> It just seems to me that, as you suggest, collective activity must have
>>> been a part of those conditions fostering communication (something found in
>>> our nearest evolutionary cousins who also have the elements of rudimentary
>>> speech)  - as was increasing tool-using, tool-making, tool-giving and
>>> tool-instructing.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Andy Blunden
>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=A3k5oeQ13zGCPUbWibdOb2KNZT4q__fLyCwugyULUDw&e=>
>>>
>>> On 16/11/2018 12:58 pm, Arturo Escandon wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Andy,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Tomasello has made similar claims, grounding the surge of
>>> articulated language on innate co-operativism and collective activity.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/cambridge-handbook-of-child-language/90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.cambridge.org_core_books_cambridge-2Dhandbook-2Dof-2Dchild-2Dlanguage_90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=vxJZooXRDYwTRrM4dzWBbLfUhF9HhmUvU3ouq6sbwPI&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Arturo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Sent from Gmail Mobile
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>
>>> Director,
>>>
>>> Office of Institutional Research
>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>
>>> Fordham University
>>>
>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>
>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>
>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>
>>> Director,
>>>
>>> Office of Institutional Research
>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>
>>> Fordham University
>>>
>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>
>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>
>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>
>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>

-- 
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Anthropology
880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
Brigham Young University
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WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu
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