[Xmca-l] Re: [Xmca -l] sociocultural theory of sentient beings
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Sun May 6 03:10:13 PDT 2018
We cannot understand species in terms of sorting them into
boxes according to attributes. The point is to identify the
behaviour which actually *brings about* the
*transformation* from one species *to the other*. This form
of behaviour (not biological characteristics) is the
"essence of humanity."
In relation to robots and humans, the equivalent question
would be what behaviour would transform a human into a
non-human robot.
Beats me.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 6/05/2018 7:53 PM, John Cripps Clark wrote:
> As David has pointed out, it is pointless to try and manufacture a characteristic that distinguish one particular type of animal (humans) à la Plato. There are good examples of animals that perpetrate and dissemble "unethical acts". There is an overlap between human and animal characteristics and the behaviours that characterise the transitions. It is interesting to see a similar confusion arising in the debate about distinguishing humans from intelligent machines.
>
> John
>
> On 6/5/18, 7:39 pm, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of robsub@ariadne.org.uk" <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of robsub@ariadne.org.uk> wrote:
>
> It might be fruitful to consider this simultaneously from two angles:
> what distinguishes us from animals, and what distinguishes us from
> robots. The robot path focuses around feelings, ethics and decision
> making, and is as murky as the animal angle.
>
> If you have the time and patience, it is worth watching the Swedish Akta
> Manniskor ("Real Humans"), and its English derivatve Humans. "Humans" is
> reversioned rather than translated. It keeps the same story but treats
> it differently in interesting ways, making for thought provoking
> comparisons about the ways they deal with the issues.
>
> Akta manniskor is available via wlext
> http://wlext.net/series/akta-manniskor-season-1. You have to put up with
> occasional bandwidth problems on their server, and some extremely dodgy ads.
>
> Humans is available via All4 in the UK
> http://www.channel4.com/programmes/humans. And I am delighted to find
> that series 3 is about to air. I have set my alarm clock.
>
> On 06/05/2018 07:43, Harshad Dave wrote:
> > "Human is the only animal who fabricated ethics to justify his unethical
> > acts."
> > Harshad.
> >
> > On Sun, 6 May 2018 7:54 AM Andy Blunden, <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
> >
> >> As Vygotsky showed, whatever behaviour "distinguishes"
> >> humans from other animals, then that behaviour will be found
> >> in rudimentary form in some animals. The point is not to
> >> look for an attribute which one has and another doesn't, but
> >> the behaviour which generates the transition from non-human
> >> animal to human. If that behaviour did not exist in any
> >> non-human animals, then you would be looking for God to
> >> grant it to humans.
> >>
> >> Andy
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Andy Blunden
> >> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> >> On 6/05/2018 10:47 AM, John Cripps Clark wrote:
> >>> A recent episode of Freakonomics is perhaps apposite here:
> >>>
> >>> http://freakonomics.com/podcast/animal-economics/
> >>>
> >>> Alexandra Horowitz finishes the show by saying:
> >>>
> >>> " I’ve studied and taught animal cognition and comparative psychology
> >> for decades. And this question, “What’s the one thing that distinguishes
> >> humans from non-human animals?” is clearly the driving force of much
> >> research. We might trace it back to Plato, who described man as a
> >> featherless biped. But the smart-alec Diogenes then plucked a chicken and
> >> said triumphantly, “Here is Plato’s man.” To which Plato simply pivoted,
> >> adding, “Okay, a featherless biped with broad nails, not claws.” And so it
> >> has been since, trying to find the feature that will verify the human
> >> species’ uniqueness. “It’s imitation.” “It’s culture.” “It’s teaching.”
> >> “It’s language.” “It’s a theory of mind.” Each confidently proposed and
> >> then collapsing under the weight of actual evidence.
> >>> The one thing that makes humans human? Our obsession with asking and
> >> answering this question. As far as I know we’re the only species so
> >> concerned with distinguishing ourselves from other animals. Of course,
> >> research could prove me wrong."
> >>> John
> >>>
> >>> On 6/5/18, 6:54 am, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of
> >> HENRY SHONERD" <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of
> >> hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> A continuacion:
> >>> So, I’m watching the pre-event narrative for the Kentucky Derby on
> >> NBC. My Navajo brother Herb is watching, because his daughter works with
> >> thoroughbred horses a few miles down the road from where the broadcast is
> >> eminating. “Boring” was what Herb said about the commentary until a back
> >> story that was about thoroughbred horses that were set free during a forest
> >> fire in California, rather than be burned to death. Forty-six were unlucky
> >> enough to have the doors to their stalls stay shut as the fires came on.
> >> Some of the survivors spent days on the run. The story was courage, love
> >> and respect. And horses and their owners were back to winning in
> >> statistically unexpected ways. Herb didn’t think that story was boring.
> >>> Henry
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > On May 5, 2018, at 10:51 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > That video is thought provoking, Annalisa. I'll have to try it
> >> with my dog.
> >>> >
> >>> > There are other dog behaviors that seem to be analogues of human
> >>> > behaviors. For example, in humans, around 9-10 months, infants
> >> begin
> >>> > to display "social referencing" when they start to engage in
> >> behaviors
> >>> > that they are uncertain about (a little kids crawls over the open
> >> drawer
> >>> > where kitchen ware is stored, starts to grab a dish and then
> >> looks back
> >>> > at her father sitting on a chair behind her to check his reaction
> >> before
> >>> > proceeding to pick up the dish or leave it where it is.
> >>> >
> >>> > My dog does the same thing when we go for a walk and she is unsure
> >> of which
> >>> > direction we are going to take, but she is in the lead on leash.
> >>> >
> >>> > I do not see how to get that article, Alfredo. Our library does
> >> not get the
> >>> > journal.
> >>> > Can you obtain it?
> >>> >
> >>> > mike
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 8:22 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> >> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> That’s an intellectual twist to cute cats/dogs vids in social
> >> media! There
> >>> >> was this overview article on comparative cultural cognition that
> >> I thought
> >>> >> of; I think it’s open access: http://wires.wiley.com/
> >>> >> WileyCDA/WiresArticle/wisId-WCS14.html
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Alfredo
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On 5 May 2018, at 04:35, Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu
> >> <mailto:annal
> >>> >> isa@unm.edu>> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Hello Xmcars,
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Saw this on twitter and I couldn't help but consider mirror
> >> neurons
> >>> >> working across the species.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> https://twitter.com/AMAZlNGNATURE/status/992062861735219201
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> It's not exactly pointing, but it seems to point to something.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> (Then again, we can't hear the sound, so there may be a prompt
> >> (and a
> >>> >> treat) afterwards!)
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Still, something to consider why animals might be more like us
> >> than we
> >>> >> think!
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> They want to belong too!
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Kind regards,
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Annalisa
> >>> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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