[Xmca-l] Re: Object of activity (was: Swedish activist Elon Ersson wins the day)
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Thu Jul 26 06:53:30 PDT 2018
Sure, the terminology is so variable, it is the meaning not
the word which must be paid attention to. But it is not
about *multiple* goals, or *plurality*. The crucial
distinction, the distinction which is constitutive of
consciousness, is the "task goal" and the reason for the
task. That's a definite "two-ness." Though, this does not
rule out "plurality."
a
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 26/07/2018 11:46 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
> In this terminology the object is simply the artefact
> pertaining to the activity. I doubt very much whether
> there is alignment with Engestrom other than potentially
> some basic referents.
>
> As I said, the terms do not change my own system of
> relations. I simply bow to a custom articulated by a
> Russian speaker with a long history in the tradition of
> activity theory.
>
> On the matter of multiple goals, this is not ambiguous to
> the degree that it reflects the nesting that takes place
> in such activity, i.e. the plurality is authentic.
>
> If you wish to engage any thinking in the matter, I
> suggest you'd be better off starting from Gregory Bedny's
> chapter. I'll email Gregory to see if he is willing to
> share the chapter.
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
>
>
>
> On 26 July 2018 at 11:28, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org
> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
> So "object" in your sense, the same sense in which
> Engestrom uses "object." This is something quite
> different from "goal" in Leontyev's sense, which is
> what the subject intends to transform the object into.
> Except that that concept of "goal" (intention) does
> not exist in Engestrom's system, only "outcome", which
> is clearly not the same thing as "goal" because things
> don't always go as intended. But from what I gather of
> "according to the activity goal", the "activity goal"
> is what Leontyev called the "motivation" - the reason
> for doing something. What you (and Engestrom) are
> calling "object" is like what Marx refers to as
> /Arbeitsgegenstand /- or "object of labour" (the
> "something" in your quote) whose form is changed. I
> think that's the Russian /predmet/. Fair enough.
>
> So you are contrasting "task goal" and "goal of
> activity". Fair enough, but isn't it confusing to use
> "goal" for both? That means you can never use the word
> "goal" without qualifying it as the "task goal" or the
> "goal of activity".
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
> On 26/07/2018 7:13 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>> Since my original endeavours I have switched to
>> referring to the task goal or goal of activity, in
>> conformance with Bedny et al's terminology.
>> Personally this does not change my systemic
>> formulations, but it does seem to point to holes in
>> others', whilst reducing ambiguity.
>>
>> "An object of activity that can be material or mental
>> (symbols, images, etc.) is something that can be
>> modified by a subject according to the activity goal
>> (Bedny and Karwowski, 2007; Leont’ev, 1981;
>> Rubinshtein, 1957; Zinchenko, 1995)." Bedny (2015, p. 91)
>>
>> This is from the chapter "Basic Concepts and
>> Terminology" which offers further elaboration (ref
>> below).
>>
>> Best,
>> Huw
>>
>> Bedny, G. Z. (2015) /Application of
>> Systemic-Structural Activity Theory to Design and
>> Training/. Boca Raton: CRC Press
>>
>> On 26 July 2018 at 02:54, Andy Blunden
>> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>
>> ... to continue this dialogue on winning and
>> losing, a now-departed friend who was a writer
>> once commented to me after we had together
>> watched an inspiring play performed by Melbourne
>> Workers' Theatre, that for the working class
>> *every* struggle, every story of victory, ends in
>> defeat, simply because the object of the workers'
>> movement lies if at all in the future; the road
>> to socialism is a series of small victories
>> followed by defeats. Until .... So Elon is acting
>> in a fine tradition.
>>
>> The distinction between goal and object (by
>> whatever names) was relevant for the recent xmca
>> discussion around the Brazilian social movements,
>> which kept popping up with different goals, but,
>> one suspects, shared a common object.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> PS. For the distinction between goal and object,
>> I rely on A N Leonytev's succinct definition of
>> action: "Processes, the object and motive of
>> which do not coincide with one another, we shall
>> call ‘actions’." but choice of words for object,
>> goal, aim, motive, etc., is problematic. I have
>> chosen "object" for what Hegel calls "Intention"
>> and Leontyev calls "motivation" and "goal" for
>> what ANL calls "object" in the above quote.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> Andy Blunden
>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>> <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>> On 25/07/2018 10:21 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>
>>> She achieved her goal. Her object will take
>>> longer to realise. Important to recognise the
>>> difference.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Andy Blunden
>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>> <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>>> On 25/07/2018 10:18 PM, Julian Williams wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> She wins and yet she doesn’t – the guy she went
>>>> to ‘rescue’ was deported on another flight, but
>>>> she got the support of people on the plane
>>>> (some even joined her protest) and is being
>>>> applauded by millions worldwide now: this is a
>>>> growing aspect of resistance activism, losing
>>>> and winning.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And the battle against deportations, and indeed
>>>> fascism, in Sweden and elsewhere continues….
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Julian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *<
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd>.edu> on
>>>> behalf of Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org>
>>>> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>
>>>> *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Date: *Wednesday, 25 July 2018 at 13:11
>>>> *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu"
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Swedish activist Elon
>>>> Ersson wins the day
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, you can see the stress on his young
>>>> women's face and she stands strong under
>>>> enormous pressure and she wins. Wonderful!
>>>>
>>>> andy
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Andy Blunden
>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>>> <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 25/07/2018 10:07 PM, Julian Williams wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think you and xmca may like this:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/25/swedish-student-plane-protest-stops-mans-deportation-afghanistan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ☺
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Julian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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